A Close Look at Monte Kline's Educational Credentials

Deposition Part I: November 10, 2004

In 1986, Monte Kline began operating a clinic in Bellevue, Washington, where he used electrodermal testing (EDT) as a basis for recommending dietary supplements and other products. From 2000 to 2007, his clinic home page stated that he could help help people with fatigue, Candida, headaches, low-blood sugar, high cholesterol, depression, digestive disorders, hypertension, allergies, PMS, infections, arthritis, insomnia, immune deficiencies, obesity, osteoporosis, and more.

EDT devices, which measure skin resistance to tiny electrical currents, are claimed to identify supposed "energy imbalances" and corrective products. In 2003, the Washington Attorney General's office alleged that Kline had (a) engaged in the unlicensed practice of medicine, naturopathy, and acupuncture and (b) violated the State's Consumer Protection Act by making unsubstantiated claims about EDT. After an intense legal battle, the courts ultimately ruled that Kline had violated the licensing laws but not the Consumer Protection Act. Kline then decided to stop operating in Washington because the "unlicensed practice" ruling barred him from doing EDT in that state.

During the regulatory proceedings, Kline was deposed for three days. The first segment (shown below) disclosed the following about his educational credentials:

I have not seen the second segment of Kline's deposition. The third segment explored whether he had any training that would qualify him to advise patients about cholesterol management, allergies, high blood pressure, immune deficiencies, osteoporosis, or diagnosing, treating, or judging the severity of depression. Kline stated that he had attended seminars provided by manufacturers and distributors of dietary supplements but had not had any classes or other formal training devoted exclusively to these topics. During about nine months in 1987 and 1988, Kline did nutritional evaluations at a cancer clinic owned by Glenn Warner, M.D., whose license was revoked in 1995. When asked whether another health professional had ever supervised his work with patients, Kline replied that his only clinical supervision was provided by another physician who worked at Warner's clinic. In a recent e-mail, Kline claimed that formal training related to the problems for which he offers help is largely irrelevant because he doesn't diagnose or treat medical diseases but deals with "energy imbalances."






Washington for-profit corporation;
INC., a Washington for-profit corporation;
individually and on behalf of his
marital community, as President an



CASE NO. 03-2-36726-5 SEA




Volume I



8:25 a.m.
November 10, 2004
900 Fourth Avenue, Suite 2000
Seattle, Washington

(206) 467-0800



1404 East Lynn
Seattle, Washington  98112


PAULA SELIS, Senior Counsel
Office of the Atty General of WA
900 Fourth Avenue, Suite 200, TB-14
Seattle, Washington   98164-1012

Assistant Attorney General


MONTE L. KLINE,  after being duly sworn by the Notary to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:



Q. This is the deposition of Monte Klein taken pursuant to due and proper notice to all interested parties. Present today are Mary Beth Haggerty-Shaw who is an investigator with our office, Cheryl Kringle, Paula Sellis, Jane Worden, the deponent and his attorney, Bill Bishin. A couple of preliminary matters: I'm going to be asking you questions today. If there's something that you don't understand, ask me; I'll try to make it clear what my question is. The court reporter would probably appreciate it if you spoke clearly and directly so that she could hear it.

A. Sure.

Q. If you can avoid saying uh-huh or little noises like that, they're hard to transcribe. So try to say yes or no, whatever is appropriate. Any questions before we start?

A. No.

Q. Could you state your name for the record.

A. Monte Lynn Kline.

Q. What is your current address?

A. 70090 Holmes H-o-l-m-e-s Road, Sisters, Oregon 97759.

Q. So you're currently an Oregon resident; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been living in Oregon?

A. Two years.

Q. Prior to that where did you live?

A. In Carnation, Washington.

Q. And how long did you live in carnation?

A. Four or five years.

Q. And prior to that where did you live?

A. Cle Elum.

Q. How long did you live in Cle Elum?

A. Eight years.

Q. At what year did you start living in Cle Elum?

A. 1989 I believe.

Q. And prior to 1989 where did you live?

A. In Bothell, Washington.

Q. For how long did you live in Bothell?

A. Two years.

Q. And that would have been 1987 then that you left?

A. Yeah, '87 and '88.

Q. Prior to that where did you live?

A. Eagle Point, Oregon.

Q. How long did you live in Eagle Point?

A. Eight years.

Q. So that would take us to 1978; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Eagle Point, Oregon, is that near Portland?

A. That is near Medford.

Q. Okay. I'm going to start by asking you about your education. What degrees do you hold?

A. I hold a bachelor of science from Oregon State University, master of Bible theology from International Bible Institute and Seminary and a Ph.D in nutrition and holistic health sciences from Columbia Pacific University.

Q. And in what years did you get those respective degrees?

A. The bachelor of science from Oregon State is 1971. The other two degrees are -- excuse me, I think the master of Bible theology is 1983. The Ph.D is 1984.

Q. And I'd like to focus for now at least on the Ph.D. What college did you say you attended then?

A. Columbia Pacific University.

Q. And where were you living then during the time that you obtained your Ph.D?

A. Eagle Point, Oregon.

Q. Where is Columbia Pacific?

A. Columbia Pacific is San Rafael, California

Q. How did you decide to get your degree from Columbia Pacific?

A. A referral from my partner at the time who had inquired about it and was interested in pursuing a degree himself there and suggested that I might be interested in doing the same.

Q. Who was your partner at that time?

A. George Debouch.

Q. Could you spell that.

A. Yes, D-u-b-o-u-c-h.

Q. And so you decided to apply to Columbia Pacific; is that correct?

A. I did.

Q. And was there an application process involved in that?

A. Yes.

Q. And what were the requirements for applying?

A. I don't recall specifically what the application was. There was some kind of an application fee, of course, and a listing of previous education and work experience and so on.

Q. So were you required to have an undergraduate degree prior to --

A. Yes.

Q. -- applying for the Ph.D?

A. Yes.

Q. One other note I want to make is that we're probably eager to answer questions and ask them. If we talk over, then Jane can't transcribe. So I'll ask, you answer, and I'll try not to talk over you, and she'll have a much easer sometime of it. What was your purpose in seeking a Ph.D at the time?

A. I had just begun clinical practice a few months before with Mr. Debouch in Medford, Oregon, and it seemed like a logical next step to take educationally if I was going to be in clinical practice to pursue an advanced degree in the field I was working in.

Q. Did you consider other institutions at the time?

A. I did.

Q. Which ones?

A. National College of Naturopathic Medicine in Portland, Bastyr Naturopathic College here in Seattle. I believe just those two.

Q. Why did you decide on Columbia Pacific?

A. I was already working in the field and had been teaching and doing seminars in the field. I didn't live near either of the institutions, the other institutions I mentioned, and they offered a non-resident program based in part on previous experience and research centered around an independent study project. And so it fit my situation and where I was living.

Q. Did you actually attend the school; did you go there?

A. There are no classes. They don't do classes. They do independent study projects under a faculty mentor. So everybody getting degrees from Columbia Pacific was doing their study wherever they were in the world.

Q. And was this considered a full-time or part-time program?

MR. BISHIN: I'll object to the form of the question.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You can answer.

A. I don't know how to answer that. I've never thought of it in those terms. That would depend upon the person I suppose. In my own case I had already done most of the work already for the independent study project in terms of my published works at the time. For other people it would probably be a full-time occupation pursuing the degree.

Q. So because you'd already done a lot of the work that would have been required for the degree, it was probably a part-time program for you?

A. I would say that's a fair assessment.

Q. So you were still continuing in your clinic while you were undertaking the course at Columbia Pacific?

A. That's correct. The clinical practice had just started at about the same time in late 1983. So there wasn't too much difference in time.

Q. You mentioned that you worked under a faculty mentor there; who was that?

A. Dr. Fred Featherolf, spelled like feather and "olf" on the end. And he likewise had a degree in the field that I was dealing with in nutrition.

Q. What did his mentorship include?

A. Phone conversations regarding my experience, what I had done, what I was doing, my seminars, what my specific interest and objectives were.

Q. How often did you talk to him during the period of time that you were a student?

A. At this time I don't recall how often, perhaps monthly.

Q. And with regard to how long you were a student, how long did you actually take to get your degree from the time that you enrolled?

A. I don't recall exactly, but I would say approximately six to nine months were involved in the total time period.

Q. And what were the school's requirements for obtaining a Ph.D?

A. Having a bachelor's degree first of all and then documenting any work or life experience that you were claiming as part of the basis for the degree and then primarily the independent study project, essentially a thesis.

Q. And what was your thesis on?

A. My thesis, independent study project to use their term, was a combination of at that time two or three of my published works, my first book, full length book, Eat, Drink and Be Ready, my second look booklet, The Junk Food Withdrawal Manual. And I believe my third one was also included at that time also published in 1983, Vitamin Manual for the Confused. In addition to those I submitted the seminar outline syllabuses for two of the seminars I was teaching at the time around the country called Total Life Seminars. And in addition to that I documented the clinical method and protocol setup of our nutritional clinic practice that we were doing and documented that -- I don't know exactly how to say it, but described the method that we had developed for seeing clients, what we were testing. And just the setup of the clinic was part of the independent study project too. So it included five or six different things.

Q. The three published works that you mentioned -- Eat, Drink and Be Ready, Junk Food Withdrawal, Vitamin Manual -- those had already been written at the time that you matriculated at the college; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And did your mentor review your dissertation or your work?

A. Yes.

Q. When I refer to dissertation here I guess the appropriate word is independent study project; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did he give you any feedback on it?

A. Positive feedback. He liked it as I recall and complimented me on the work.

Q. Did he give you any written feedback?

A. None that I recall. I only recall phone conversations.

Q. And you said that you didn't take any formal classes. Did they offer formal classes?

A. No. There were no classes at Columbia Pacific University. It was all independent study projects.

Q. So you didn't take any classes or do any coursework I guess in physiology?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you do any coursework in anatomy?

A. No.

Q. Did you do any coursework in microbiology?

A. I previously had coursework for my bachelor's degree at Oregon State both in biological science and in physics and in chemistry but not relative to the time period of the Columbia Pacific degree.

Q. Let me back up a second. What was your degree awarded in at Oregon State?

A. It was awarded in physical geography.

Q. What is physical geography?

A. Physical geography is somewhat similar to geology. It's an earth science field as distinguished from economic geography or cultural geography, would involve study of land forms, climatology, requires study in physics, chemistry, botany, basic physical science backgrounds as opposed to a social science geography degree.

Q. It doesn't involve the study of biology, does it?

A. It does.

Q. Under what theory does it involve biological study?

A. In my case I studied botany which I was more interested in at the time. But the degree has a biological science requirement that could be fulfilled by either botany or biology or anatomy or, you know, any basic biological sciences course.

Q. Did you take human physiology when you were at O.S.C.?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Did you take chemistry then?

A. Yes.

Q. Take any nutritional sciences at O.S.U.?

A. No, I did not.

Q. When you were doing your coursework at Columbia Pacific University, did you take any courses, or do any coursework I should say, in research methodologies?

A. I had one course my senior year from the education department that could be classified that way I think, yes.

Q. The education department at O.S.U.?

A. Oregon State University.

Q. What was that course?

A. I don't recall the name now, but it was a research course involving taking a particular topic and presenting a paper on it for the professor.

Q. What year did you graduate from O.S.U.?

A. 1971.

Q. Since 1971 have you taken any courses in biology?

A. I have taken -- back up. I have attended many seminars that dealt with aspects of biology. I haven't taken a, quote, unquote, "biology course" from a college or anything, no.

Q. I want to go back to the Ph.D program at Columbia Pacific. Was there any coursework that you did that was related to pharmacology?

A. As I said, there was no coursework, period. So the answer would be no.

Q. When I say coursework I mean work related to your independent study as well.

A. No.

Q. Any coursework in your independent study on medical nutrition therapy?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: No. Again, I would clarify that the independent study project was based upon picking with the faculty mentor an area that you wanted to study that you had an interest in and then assembling the appropriate research project for fulfilling that objective. So there's nothing with it that is anything like taking a course on this or that or the other thing. It's all focused on whatever the specific topic was and the specific degree field that you're dealing with.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Okay. Were there any clinical aspects; did you work with patients as part of your independent study?

A. Every day because I was in clinical practice.

Q. Just so I understand, what you submitted in addition to the published works you'd already written was a report on what you had been doing in your own clinical practice; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So when you say you had some clinical experience, it was your own clinical experience with your own clients; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Who besides your mentor did you interact with there as part of the faculty?

A. You're asking who decided or who assigned me that?

Q. No. I'll rephrase the question. You mentioned Mr. --

A. Featherolf.

Q. -- Featherolf, and I'm wondering if you worked with any other faculty members at the time that you were at Columbia Pacific University.

A. There was one other faculty member; I do not recall his name. But all students had to complete a project as part of the degree that they call the healthscription, so health and then like subscription, which was more of a personal worksheet type of thing to go through relative to your own health, your own goals in life, all of your activities that would contribute to health. And it was designed as just a self-evaluation tool that they felt all of their students should go through that process. And a particular faculty member designed that and reviewed those, but I don't recall his name.

Q. Was any academic study required in order to do that?

A. No.

Q. Could you, if you remember, tell us about Dr. Featherolf's background.

A. I don't know anything about his background other than he had a Ph.D in the field that I was working in.

Q. Was it the same kind of Ph.D you had exactly, or was it --

A. I don't know. We never discussed that.

Q. Did he teach any classes at all?

A. Not to my knowledge. Again, Columbia Pacific didn't have classes. I don't know if he was involved in teaching elsewhere.

Q. You use your degree in your advertising, do you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Why is that?

A. Because it relates to the field of practice that I'm in as a nutritionist.

Q. Do you think it inspires confidence in your clients?

A. I would hope so.

Q. You use your degree and call yourself "Doctor"; is that correct?

A. In the context of the Ph.D degree, yes.

Q. And do you think calling yourself Doctor inspires confidence in your clients?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Yes, on initial encounter. I think, you know, beyond that the experience the person has with me or any of our other practitioners is going to determine their confidence rather than a title.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Now, it's true, isn't it, that Columbia Pacific was eventually shut down by the State of California?

A. That is my understanding.

Q. And it was not accredited by the United States Department of Education, was it?

A. It was -- according to my understanding at the time I got my degree in 1984 it was a candidate for accreditation. It was authorized by the U.S. Department of Education and the State of California to grant degrees.

Q. But it was not accredited by the Department of Education, was it?

A. I'm not aware that the Department of Education accredits universities. My understanding would be that the regional accrediting associations do that.

Q. Was it accredited at the time that you were there?

A. It was not -- again, my understanding is that it was a candidate for accreditation at that time in the mid 1980s.

Q. It eventually applied for licensure from the State of California, and it was denied licensure; is that correct?

A. I have no knowledge on that.

Q. And I said earlier that it had been permanently shut down. That was in 1999; is that correct?

A. Somewhere in the late 1990s. I don't know the exact year.

Q. When the school was shut down, were you aware that they were required by the court to offer tuition refunds to prior students?

A. No.

Q. So did you ever receive a notice telling you that you were entitled to a refund?

A. No.

Q. So I take it that you didn't request one then; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. With regard to the denial of the licensure application and the accreditation by the State of California --

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: With regard to the licensure application to the State of California and the denial of accreditation, do you know that it was denied because it failed to meet the various requirements for issuing Ph.Ds?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge as to the specifics of the case. It had been many years since I had been associated with the school, and I hadn't followed it.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do you think that the school's failure to receive accreditation and its subsequent closure by the State of California affects your Ph.D in any way?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.


Q. BY MS. SELIS: If you knew that the reason that it was shut down was because it awarded excessive credit for experiential learning to many students and it failed to employ duly qualified faculty, would you feel any different?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: No. My only experience with Columbia Pacific relates to 1983 and 1984. And I have no knowledge as to what happened, how standards might have changed or anything else relative to the time period that they were investigated and subsequently shut down by the State of California.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You talked about your independent study project and your conversations with Dr. Featherolf over the course of it. Eventually did you have to essentially defend your independent study project just like you would defend a dissertation?

A. There was a, as I recall, a conference telephone call going over it that was sort of a final step before granting the degree.

Q. And how long did that call take?

A. Perhaps an hour.

MS. SELIS: At this time I would like to introduce an exhibit. (Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You've been handed what's been marked as Exhibit 1. Could you identify that for us.

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: This is the clinic brochure of Pacific Health Center.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And in what context is it used?

A. It's in a display container at our clinics. It is also mailed out to people that request information. It's also available for pick up at our seminars.

Q. And did you compose the text of this?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Is that your picture on there?

A. That is.

Q. And when did you put this brochure together?

A. Do you mean in this current form?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't know the exact year that we started using this form, but I believe we've been using this particular form about four years, five years at the most. MS. SELIS: Move to admit it.

Q. And I'm going to ask you some questions about it. You can use that copy if you'd like to work off of.

MR. BISHIN: Let me object to admitting it at this point. Obviously it can be made a part of the deposition.

MS. SELIS: That's what I mean.

Q. The language underneath your picture says that Dr. Monte Kline is the author of five best-selling books in the health and nutrition field -- Eat, Drink and Be Ready, The Junk Food Withdrawal Manual, Vitamin Manual for the Confused, The Sick and Tired Manual and Body, Mind and Health, a Biblical Approach to Wholeness. Why do you call them best sellers?

A. Because they are.

Q. How do you define a best seller?

A. It's defined in various ways according to the publisher or wholesaler. But generally anyone with over 400,000 copies of their books sold would be considered a best selling author by anybody's definition.

Q. So have you sold over 400,000 of each of these?

A. No. That would be a combined total.

Q. A combined total of the five?

A. Yes.

Q. How many copies of Eat, Drink and Be Ready have you sold?

A. 104,000.

Q. And The Junk Food Withdrawal Manual?

A. Approximately 300,000.

Q. And Vitamin Manual for the Confused?

A. I don't have an exact number on that one, but it would be approximately 30,000.

Q. Sick and Tired Manual?

A. I think probably 15 or 20,000.

Q. And Body, Mind and Health, a Biblical Approach to Wholeness?

A. Six to 8,000.

Q. Now, it's true, isn't it, that some of these are pamphlets of less than 30 pages; is that correct?

A. No. The Junk Food Withdrawal Manual, Vitamin Manual for the Confused and The Sick and Tired Manual are 32-page booklets.

Q. And Eat, Drink and Be Ready is how many pages?

A. 430.

Q. And Body, Mind and Health is how many pages?

A. I think it's 132.

Q. And Body, Mind and Health, a Biblical Approach to Wholeness, would you describe that as mostly theology?

A. No.

Q. What percentage of it do you think is theology versus nutrition or some other matter?

A. Perhaps 50-50 between the theological side and the nutritional health, physical health side.

Q. And with regard to Eat, Drink and Be Ready, that is about getting ready for the apocalypse, isn't it?

A. That's one of the things discussed.

Q. What else is it about?

A. It deals with natural approaches to common health problems to degenerative diseases. It deals with food processing, food additives, water contamination and purification methods. It deals with obesity, exercise. Those would be some of the other topics.

Q. When did you write it?

A. I wrote that primarily the summer of 1976.

Q. And that was prior to the time that you started your clinics?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was after the time you attended O.S.U.?

A. After the time I attended --

Q. You attended Oregon State University.

A. Yes.

Q. I'm curious to know about Eat, Drink and Be Ready. You said that part of it was about getting ready for the apocalypse. What is that about?

A. Those are your terms, not mine. The book is about end times preparedness relative to specific issues such as shortages in food supply, disruption created by earthquakes, other natural disasters and so on. Approximately a third of the book deals with that, and approximately two thirds of it deals with nutrition and nutritional approaches to health.

Q. And I haven't read the book; I'll confess that. What kinds of things do you suggest to get ready for end times as you call them?

MR. BISHIN: In the book?

Q. BY MS. SELIS: In the book.

A. As mentioned it primarily focuses on disruptions to the food supply. So it suggests things like storing an emergency food supply. It suggests some basic earthquake preparedness measures, discusses types of construction, things like that. Those are the only things that come to mind without looking. I haven't looked at it recently.

Q. So is the presumption in the book that eventually we will enter a period of apocalypse and that we should get ready for it?

A. That presumption would be there, yes.

Q. And is that still the presumption under which you're working?

A. That has been the presumption of the Christian church for the last 2,000 years, so yes.

Q. And is there any projection as to when that is going to occur?

A. No.

Q. I want to talk a little bit more about some of the representations that you make in Exhibit 1 and something you said here. You said you hold a master of Bible theology from International Bible Institute and Seminary. When did you get that degree?

A. I believe 1983.

Q. When you say you believe, are you certain of that?

A. Not without looking at the degree for the date. It could -- it would have had to have been either in 1983 or 1984.

Q. And that school is located in Florida; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. At the time that you got the degree you were living in Oregon; correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you actually attend classes at the Florida school?

A. I did not. I received the degree based on transfer credits.

Q. When you say "transfer credits," could you explain that means.

A. Transfer of credits from what became the International Christian Graduate University in San Bernardino, California which I had done coursework through since 1970.

Q. So that overlapped with your time as an undergraduate at Oregon State University?

A. Yeah. I had summer work in the summer of 1970 and then after that was subsequent to graduation from O.S.U.

Q. So did you actually attend that school?

A. Yes.

Q. Say the name of it again, I'm sorry.

A. What I said was it became the International Christian Graduate University. It was a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ which I was employed by at the time as a staff member. They had a program called -- a summer program called the Institute of Biblical Studies taught by seminary professors from various theological seminaries. And that was later turned into a full-fledged accredited seminary from which I had the transfer credits to give to the school in Florida.

Q. What period of time did you actually attend the school in California?

A. It wasn't always in California because sometimes their training was elsewhere. We had training summer of 1973 at Purdue University and at Colorado State University the summer of 1974. And every summer that I was with Campus Crusade for Christ we had training in that program.

Q. So the transfer credit essentially was from the trainings that you accrued while you were working for Campus Crusade for Christ?

A. That's correct.

Q. And they were summer programs?

A. That's when they were conducted was in the summer, yes.

Q. How long were the programs?

A. Generally five-week.

Q. And how many programs did you attend?

A. I attended three that were the five week Institute of Biblical Studies programs. We had other shorter ones in addition to that, but there were three summers that I had that.

Q. So three five-week programs. And you used that for transfer credit to get a master's in Bible theology from the International Bible Institute; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you have to pay tuition to the International Bible Institute to get the master's degree?

A. Yes.

Q. And how much was that?

A. I don't recall now.

Q. And was there any course of study in addition to the transfer credits that enabled you to get the master's degree?

A. No.

Q. And over what period of time did you get the master's degree, or was it instantaneous once you sent the transfer credits on?

A. I wouldn't say instantaneous, but it was processed fairly quickly with documenting the transcripts from the other works.

Q. And you said this was in 1984; is that correct?

A. Late '83 or early 1984.

Q. And did that overlap at all with your Ph.D program?

A. My recollection is that I already had the master of Bible theology before I started the work with Columbia Pacific. But it was around the same time, but I think I had finished the one.

Q. Why did you seek the master's in Bible theology if you already had the course credit?

A. Because I had done the work but I hadn't gotten a degree credit for it and I felt I deserved the degree credit for doing the work.

Q. How did you hear about the school?

A. I don't remember. I don't remember how I originally heard about it.

Q. Did you know if it was an accredited school by the State of Florida or any other accrediting agency?

A. I'm not sure I knew at that point if it was or not. They did have a regular on-campus student body and classes and so on too in addition to their external programs. So I'm not sure I asked the question.

Q. Do you know whether it's accredited now?

A. I don't have any knowledge on it now.

Q. In this brochure you say you're a professional member of the American Association of Nutritional Consultants; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. What does it take to be a member of that?

A. To be a professional member like most professional memberships it just requires filling out an application form and paying for whatever time period of membership you're paying for.

Q. So basically just paying a fee; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Are there any minimum requirements in order to become a member?

A. Well, to be a professional member you have to be practicing as a nutritional consultant.

Q. And is that on their web site do they say that?

A. I don't know that I've ever been to their web site. That wasn't where -- my exposure was from printed material from them.

Q. Does the printed material say that you have to be a practicing nutritionist in order to be a member of the organization?

A. Again, I want to clarify they have several levels of membership. And my understanding was that the professional membership you had to be practicing. But I don't recall specifically if that was on the application or not.

Q. Do you have to pay a fee every year in order to stay a professional member?

A. That's correct.

Q. And do you have to take any continuing education credits in order to maintain your professional membership?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Do you have to continue to be a professional nutritionist in order to keep your membership up?

A. I don't know since that never came up in my situation. I've always been in practice.

Q. Do you hold any other accreditations?

A. Nothing other than the certificates for various seminars that I've attended classes.

Q. Do you belong to any trade associations?

A. The one previously mentioned is the only trade association.

Q. That would be the --

A. American Association of Nutritional Consultants.

Q. What do you know about the organization?

A. I know they're currently headquartered in Indian

A. I've met the current head of the organization at a seminar I've attended in the past. I know they have a certification program that we've used with some employees. Beyond that I don't know a lot about the organization.

Q. Do they hold seminars themselves?

A. I'm not aware of any seminars they hold.

Q. And in order to be a professional member you said that you had to be a nutritionist; is that correct?

A. That is my understanding.

Q. Does that require licensure?

A. No.

Q. Does it require charging a fee to provide nutritional advice?

A. To my knowledge they haven't defined that on any of their application materials.

Q. So what's your understanding of what it means to be a professional member as opposed to a non-professional member of this organization?

A. By definition from the Latin words "professional" means that you're charging a fee as opposed to "amateur" meaning that you do it because you love it. So professional by definition means charging a fee.

Q. So anybody who joins this organization and charges somebody a fee to provide services is in your opinion a professional nutritionist?

A. Again technically from the definition of the word "professional," if you charge a fee, you are a professional at whatever area you're charging a fee in.

Q. Later on we'll talk about the employees that you have who are members of this organization. But I just want to bring it up now. Do you consider them to be professional nutritionists as well?

A. Yes.

Q. And are they members as well?

A. Yes.

Q. I just want to clarify. There are no minimum requirements for membership other than you call yourself a nutritionist. And if you want to be a professional member, you call yourself a professional nutritionist.

A. I have not reviewed their application materials in many years; so I can't fully say that that's the total definition on their application materials. You know, I really don't recall the -- what I've given you is just to the best of my recollection relative to many years ago to first filling out that particular application.

Q. But you've renewed your membership on an annual basis?

A. Yes. But I haven't filled out a new application. That's only done initially.

Q. Do you know if I for example could become a member of this association not having any nutritional experience?

A. That would depend if you lied on the application I guess.

Q. So I could conceivably lie on the application and become a member of the organization?

A. In that organization and many others.

Q. Do you belong to any organizations for practitioners of electrodermal testing?

A. No, I do not.

Q. Any informal groups who meet and talk about EDT?

A. Not at this time.

Q. From now on I'm going to refer to electrodermal testing as EDT just because it's easier. I want to come back to the American Association of Nutritional Consultants for a second. When you become a member do you get a certificate that says you're a member?

A. Yes.

Q. And you display those certificates in your office, do you not?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you display the fact that you are a member of the organization?

A. Yes.

Q. As well as your employees who are members?

A. Yes.

Q. And why do you display them?

A. I think any professional organization regardless of the field indicates a seriousness about the field and a commitment to the field. And, you know, it does add some credibility to someone who may be wondering how involved you are in this.

Q. How much is the annual fee now, do you recall, to be a member of the organization?

A. I believe it's $50.00.

Q. And do you pay that for your employees as well yourself?

A. I do.

Q. So they're not required to spend that money on their own to become accredited?

A. No.

Q. Do you require those who do electrodermal testing at your offices to be members of this organization?

A. We haven't always. Most have, but we haven't -- it's not a formal requirement.

Q. Do you now?

A. Let me answer that by saying I have employees that are not currently members.

Q. Are these people who actually do electrodermal testing?

A. Yes.

Q. Those people who do get membership in this organization include a designation after their names to indicate that they're members, and that designation is C.N.C.; is that correct?

A. No, that is a separate credential. The membership is one issue. The C.N.C. designation is a separate issue.

Q. Tell us about the C.N.C. designation; how do you get that?

A. You get the C.N.C. designation by passing an examination that's about approximately 1,000 questions in length.

Q. Is that sponsored by the American Association of Nutritional Consultants?

A. Yes.

Q. And how do you take the examination?

A. It is open book. And you have the questions. You have suggested reference materials to use, and it's done on your own time and then submitted when you're finished.

Q. And have you taken the examination?

A. No, I haven't.

Q. And have any of your employees?

A. Yes.

Q. Who among your employees has taken it?

A. Susan Owen at the Bellevue office, Karen Perrault at the Bellevue office, Jan Scarcello at the Spokane office -- I think just those three.

Q. And when did they take the exam?

A. During their training period before employment.

Q. Which is going to be different for each and every one of them?

A. Yes.

Q. We'll get into the training question a little bit later. So do they all use the designation C.N.C. then after their names?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether they have had any specific training in nutrition that would enable them to take and pass this exam?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. You said that it is an open-book exam; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What book or books are they referring to when they take the exam?

A. It's not just one book. And it's not any set books. But the American Association of Nutritional Consultants recommends several reference books which you may or may not use. You may also use other reference books in order to answer questions.

Q. And you said that they have as much time as they want to take to take the exam?

A. That's correct.

Q. How much do they pay to take the exam?

A. I think it's $150.

Q. Do you know if anybody's ever flunked the exam?

A. None of my employees have.

Q. Any reason why you've decided not to take the exam yourself?

A. Having the Ph.D degree already, it would be redundant.

Q. Do you think the taking of the test actually helps them perform their service or their job duties?

A. Yes.

Q. Why is that?

A. Well, it forces them into some areas of study they may not have thought about and improves their background knowledge on some topics.

Q. I'm going to look back a little bit just at your general education. We've talked about it starting at Oregon State going to your Ph.D. and everything in between. At any time during that period did you receive any training from anyone at any academic institution relating to testing medical devices?

A. No.

Q. Did you receive any training related to scientific theory methods?

A. There would have been some of that with my undergraduate degree at Oregon State in chemistry, physics, botany, earth science.

Q. Let's shift focus a little bit here and talk about prior employment. Just to kind of run it down, starting with 1971 after you graduated from college, what has been your employment history; what have you done for what periods of time?

A. I was in full time Christian ministry with Campus Crusade for Christ from 1971 to January of 1977. From 1977 to 1983 I was involved in various health products, sales and doing my writing and speaking, doing seminars in terms of health and nutrition. Also in 1978 and probably part of 1979 I sold real estate for a brief period of time. 1983 to the present I've been involved in nutritional consulting.

Q. You said you sold real estate in 1978; was that in Oregon then?

A. That would have been in Medford, Oregon.

Q. Do you still have a real estate license?

A. No.

Q. But for the time that you were working for Campus Crusade for Christ, which would have been '71 to '77, you have been essentially self-employed; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And in that period of self-employment has there ever been a time when you have reported to anyone when anyone has been your supervisor?

A. Would you repeat the question?

Q. Sure. During that period of time, during the period of time that you were self-employed, has there ever been a time when you have reported to anyone when anyone was your supervisor?

A. Yes, in that one I left out that I neglected to mention. I was also employed by Northwest Oncology Clinics in Seattle, between 19 -- that would have been in 1987, part of 1988. And in that instance I was an employee and had a supervisor.

Q. What were you doing for them?

A. I was a clinical nutritionalist.

Q. Who did you work with there?

A. The late Dr. Glen Warner, M.D., and Dr. Ken Bakken, B-a-k-k-e-n, D.O.

Q. Is Northwest Oncology Clinic still operating?

A. It is under a different name.

Q. What is the name of it now?

A. It is Seattle Cancer Treatment Center.

Q. And you worked there for how long of a period of time?

A. I think about nine months.

Q. Why did you leave?

A. I was terminated.

Q. Why were you terminated?

A. Primarily because they were not getting insurance reimbursements for my appointments most of the time from what was then King County Medical.

Q. Why weren't they?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer to that. That was just a statement that was made to me.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Have any ideas as to why that might have been?

A. In my experience most insurance companies do not pay for nutritionists.

Q. And when you were hired had they had any other nutritionists on board at that center?

A. They had a registered nurse that was doing some nutritional consulting with her patients up to that point.

Q. Do you know whether they got reimbursement for her services?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you have any special training when you were and had to advise cancer patients on their nutrition needs?

A. No. They brought me in for that area of expertise.

Q. So you already knew about how to advise cancer patients on nutrition?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was based on what training that you had had?

A. Personal experience first of all because I got into this field from being a cancer patient and then my own personal study of that primarily relative to my own health.

Q. We talked off the record a little bit about where you're currently living. You're currently living in Sisters, Oregon; right?

A. Most of the time.

Q. And where else do you live?

A. Of course I travel between our clinics. And I normally spend some time in Arizona in the winter.

Q. So you have a place in Arizona as well?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Where?

A. Green Valley, Arizona.

Q. I'm sorry, say that again?

A. Green Valley, Arizona.

Q. Were is that close to?

A. Tucson.

Q. What percentage of your time do you spend in Oregon versus Arizona?

A. Last year it was about 50-50.

Q. And do you own property in Sisters?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you own?

A. We own a home on an acreage.

Q. What about in Arizona?

A. We own a townhouse.

Q. Do you own any other property anywhere else?

A. Not at this time.

Q. Did you at one point have a place in Hawaii as well?

A. Yes.

Q. And you no longer own it?

A. That was sold about a year and a half ago.

Q. With regard to the clinics, do you rent the property that the clinics occupy, or do you own that property as well?

A. You're speaking of the Bellevue?

Q. I'm speaking of any of your clinics.

A. They're all leased.

Q. Any other real property here that I'm not mentioning that you own?

A. No.

Q. You mentioned that you started selling health products, getting involved in consulting in 1977. How did you get interested in that?

A. From my own cancer experience primarily and personal research relative to my own healing.

Q. So were you diagnosed with cancer in 1977?

A. I was diagnosed with cancer in 1974.

Q. And what kind of cancer was that?

A. Testicular.

Q. And you were living in Oregon at the time; is that correct?

A. I was living in California at the time.

Q. Let me back up here then. My understanding was that you graduated from college and continued to live in Oregon. There was a period when you were in California?

A. No, when I graduated from college and joined the Campus Crusade ministry we were two years in Bozeman, Montana, the next year in Warrensburg, Missouri and the final two-and-a-half years in San Bernardino, California.

Q. So it was in San Bernardino that you were diagnosed?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was your treating physician at the time?

A. Henry Hadley.

Q. Out of what practice was he affiliated --

A. Loma Linda University Medical Center.

Q. How old were you at the time?

A. Twenty-four.

Q. What was your course of treatment?

A. Surgery, the affected testicle was surgically removed, and then I had five weeks of radiation therapy.

Q. Any chemotherapy at the time?

A. No.

Q. Were you essentially cured at that time?

A. My health was in a state of pretty much total ruin at that time.

Q. What was your prognosis with regard to the cancer?

A. As far as they were concerned at Loma Linda it had been dealt with.

Q. So they thought you had been cured, but you're saying that you felt that your health was in a state of disarray?

A. Yeah, relative to the cancer they considered it cured. My overall health was very poor.

Q. What was wrong with you other than the cancer?

A. Well, reaction to the radiation therapy primarily.

Q. What was your reaction to the radiation therapy?

A. Extreme nausea, vomiting, weight loss -- primarily those.

Q. Were you given any traditional medicines at the time to help you deal with those?

A. Yes.

Q. What were you given at the time?

A. Lomotil.

Q. So that's an anti-nausea medication?

A. Yeah, I think so.

Q. Anything else?

A. That's the only medication I recall being given.

Q. What was your follow-up treatment after surgery and radiation?

A. There was none with them. I discontinued treatment with them and sought help from another medical doctor.

Q. Who was the doctor that you sought help with?

A. Richard Welch, M.D.

Q. Was his course of treatment different?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he do?

A. He did a nutritionally based therapy including the Dr. Virginia Livingston's autogenous vaccine approach.

Q. What is that?

A. It's a vaccine that's cultured from your own blood that you take by injection to deal with a particular organism that Dr. Livingston identified and believed there was a causative agent with cancer.

Q. And did that treatment help you?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it about that time that you began becoming interested in alternative healthcare?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. What was the impetus for that exactly?

A. Seeing Dr. Welch, number one. He began my education in terms of thinking of nutritional approaches to health problems and to that my own degenerative disease. He started me on reading various things and various diets and nutritional supplements and so on. And then I continued to read anything I could get my hands on on the subject after that.

Q. And you continued working for the Campus Crusade for Christ at that time?

A. That's correct.

Q. When did you first learn about the existence of EDT?

A. I believe that would have been in early 1986.

Q. How did it come to your attention?

A. A friend of mine, Dr. Corinne Allen Ph.D, who is also a nutritionist in Southern California --

MR. BISHIN: Want to spell that for the record.

THE WITNESS: Corinne, C-o-r-i-n-n-e, Allen, A-l-l-e-n, demonstrated the EDT device that she was using in her practice.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And this was '86 did you say?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to back up a little bit. You said that in '83 was when you started actually setting up a business related to healthcare and nutrition. So this postdates your original setting up of that business?

A. That's correct. The first three years of my nutritional practice I was not doing EDT.

Q. And when you first saw this demonstration by Corinne Allen, it was a clinical demonstration?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: It was at her office if that's what you mean.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Did she have a patient with her that she was demonstrating this EDT device on?

A. She demonstrated on myself and on my wife.

Q. What did she demonstrate?

A. I don't recall exactly. I just remember her taking a number of EDT readings on acupuncture points on my fingers.

Q. What did the readings show; do you recall?

A. I don't recall specifically.

Q. Did her readings result in any kind of recommendations to you about supplements, healthcare, changing your lifestyle, anything?

A. No. It was a fairly brief demonstration.

Q. So it was just a demonstration and not a consultation in other words?

A. Yes.

Q. And why did she show it to you?

A. I was curious about it. I had heard that she was using a testing instrument, and I wanted to see what it was all about.

Q. And did you think it worked?

A. I was positively impressed. I had very limited knowledge at that point, but I recall having a positive impression.

Q. Why?

A. It seemed to make sense to me in terms of the readings with what I already knew.

Q. So it confirmed what you already knew about your health?

A. That's my recollection, yes.

Q. And is that true of your wife's health as well?

A. Again, to the extent of my recollection, yes.

Q. What did you do once you became interested in the whole concept of EDT after Corinne Allen introduced you to it?

A. Well, I asked her, "How do I find out more about this? Where did you get your machine? Or who is involved in doing this?" And she gave me the names of I believe two or three equipment manufacturers that I subsequently contacted.

Q. And back to Ms. Allen here for a moment, or Dr. Allen, you said she was a nutritionist; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she a licensed nutritionist in the state of California?

A. Nutritionists at least at that time were not licensed in Californi

A. I don't know if they are now or not.

Q. Do you know what her Ph.D is in?

A. It's in nutrition.

Q. Do you know where it's obtained from?

A. It came from Donsbach University.

Q. Could you spell that.

A. D-o-n-s-b-a-c-h.

Q. Where is that located?

A. I don't know. It was I think in Southern California.

Q. How long had she been in practice when you met with her in 1986?

A. I'm not sure. I think she had been in practice for several years, but I don't know exactly.

Q. Do you know whether she's published any papers or had published any papers at that time?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you know whether she teaches in any kind of a university or equivalent environment?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Is she currently still in practice in California?

A. Yes.

Q. Does she still use EDT?

A. I don't know.

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Are you still in contact with her?

A. Yes.

Q. How often?

A. My last phone conversation with her was several months ago. I'm not very regularly in contact with her.

Q. So let's get back to this. So you were interested in it. You wanted to find out more about it. You wanted to find out where you could actually get one of these machines. And what did you learn?

A. I contacted Esion Corporation, E-s-i-o-n, in the Salt Lake City area, who at the time were manufacturing two instruments, the Vitel, V-i-t-e-l, and the Interro, I-n-t-e-r-r-o, and was invited to attend one of their seminars.

Q. And did you read any articles about EDT around that time as well?

A. I don't recall if I did or not.

Q. What other studies did you do of EDT besides talking to manufacturers?

A. I attended that initial seminar. I got information also from the Occidental Institute Research Foundation in British Columbia that was involved in presenting seminars and publishing material relative to EDT and other energetic medicine approaches.

Q. So this is back in '86. So you went to the seminar that was put on by the manufacturer in Salt Lake City?

A. Yes.

Q. How long a seminar was this?

A. It was a weekend seminar.

Q. And you learned about the machine?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you learn about how to actually do EDT testing at that time?

A. Some, yes.

Q. Who was the presenter at that seminar?

A. Dr. Roy Curtain, C-u-r-t-a-i-n, Ph.D.

Q. What is his Ph.D in?

A. Physics.

Q. Do you know where that was obtained from?

A. I believe from the University of Utah.

Q. And that was put on at Esion; is that correct?

A. That was the company name, yes.

Q. And it was a weekend seminar; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you also mentioned Occidental Institute of Research in British Columbia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you actually attend a seminar there as well?

A. Eventually. They sponsor seminars around the country, and I've attended several of their seminars.

Q. Back then in '86 -- we'll focus on that time for now -- did you attend a seminar at that time?

MR. BISHIN: Where?

Q. BY MS. SELIS: At Occidental.

A. I don't think I attended any seminars that early from them.

Q. After you saw the demonstration at Esion, did you decide that you wanted to get an EDT device for your practice?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you purchase it almost immediately at that time?

A. Soon after.

Q. About how much after that?

A. I would say it must have been within one month of the seminar.

Q. And this was again back in 1986?

A. Yes.

Q. We'll talk about where your clinics were in a little while. But just for purposes of context, at this point you had a clinic in Oregon in Medford; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And did you have any other clinics at that time?

A. No.

Q. So this was an EDT device that was used at least initially at your Oregon clinic?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of device was it?

A. It was the Vitel instrument, V-i-t-e-l.

Q. And who was the inventor of that?

A. I don't know. I assume Dr. Curtain, but I don't know that for a fact.

Q. With whom did you consult to learn the techniques of the testing?

A. The only training I had initially was at that seminar in Utah. Subsequently I got other training.

Q. So when you first got the machine you had had the two-day training. And what were you using the machine for at that time?

A. We were doing the basic EAV testing.

Q. Maybe you can explain what EAV is.

A. Electroacupuncture according to Voll, V-o-l-l. Really at that point I was just practicing, trying to learn how to use the machine according to the instructions and manual and so on that I'd been given.

Q. So they give you written materials from which to work?

A. Yes.

Q. And what were you looking for when you did the testing at that time among your clients?

A. In the EAV approach there are primarily two things that you're looking for -- or well, really three. One are high readings. The other is low readings, and the third would be dropping readings in terms of the skin resistance.

Q. So you were looking just for these readings. Were you using it for a diagnostic tool, a helping tool, as a way of advising your clients to do anything different at that time?

A. Well, initially as I said I was primarily focused on trying to learn how to use it and figure out what it would be useful for which I wasn't really sure at that point. So it was for me at an investigational level the first several months that I was using it.

Q. So you weren't really sure what you were going to use it for?

A. I knew what it was supposed to be used for, but it takes some time to learn how to accurately take the readings and determine what direction you want to go with it as far as how you're going to use it.

Q. How much did the machine cost at that time?

A. It was just a non-computerized machine that I believe cost $600.

Q. Back up just a little bit to what you just said. You weren't really sure what you were going to use it for, but you knew what it was supposed to be used for. What was it supposed to be used for?

A. For determining energy imbalances on the acupuncture points checked.

Q. For what purpose would you determine those?

A. Well, you would determine those in order to -- by finding out what areas of the body is imbalanced first of all, then checking particular homeopathic herbal, vitamin, mineral, other ingredients with the instrument to find out what had an energy balancing effect on the body.

Q. Just to paraphrase so I understand, the idea is that you find the energy imbalance and then you find out what will correct that imbalance also with the machine; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And what will correct that imbalance is supplements, homeopathic remedies, vitamins; is that correct?

A. Any of those would be possibilities, yes.

Q. What is an imbalance?

A. An imbalance would be a deviation from the normal healthy energy flow in the body.

Q. Let's talk about your period of training here. You said that you got the machine. Were you actually using it on clients at that time in '86?

A. We were testing it on clients. We were doing another method. That wasn't our primary method at that time.

Q. What was your primary method at that time?

A. The primary method was applied kinesiology, muscle testing.

Q. So this was an augmentation of your primary method at that time; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How long was the period of time where you trained yourself to use the machine correctly?

A. Well, I don't think the training ever ends in one sense. But I would have to say that I wasn't really comfortable with the testing until I had some private mentoring after I had moved to the Seattle area from the inventor of another EDT instrument that really taught me how to do it.

Q. So how long was that period of time before you got that private mentoring?

A. That was several months later.

Q. "Several" meaning a five, six?

A. I don't remember exactly. Date wise I can tell you that I got the instrument probably in July of 1986. I moved to the Seattle area and began a practice here in October of 1986. And it would have been sometime during 1987 that I met the other individual that trained me, but I could not tell you the month or exactly when that started.

Q. So you were continuing to use the machine in your practice up until the time you met this person, I mean when you got it, to that point you were continuing to use it?

A. To a very limited degree, yes.

Q. Did you use it with every single client?

A. I don't believe so at the time, no.

Q. Did you advertise that that was one of the services you provided in your brochures?

A. No, I don't believe we advertised it at all at that point.

Q. Would you talk about it to your clients when they came in?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you give them that as an option for your services?

A. I would have explained at the time that that was one of the testing methods that we employed.

Q. And at that time you said that you were essentially training yourself. Were you also going to seminars during that period of time or other trainings to learn how to use the device?

A. I don't recall the timing of the seminars. I don't recall if I attended any seminars during that particular period of time or not.

Q. And you said the machine was $600; it wasn't computerized. Can you describe what it was.

A. Well, it's a galvanic instrument for taking electrical skin resistance readings, and it was about 8 inches by 8 inches by 4 or 5 inches high, battery operated, rechargeable battery operated with a meter on it indicating the electrical resistance reading.

Q. And that came with a manual as well?

A. Yes.

Q. When you were using it as a tool originally in Oregon, did you charge people for the testing that you did with it?

A. We charged people for the consultation appointment. And that involved, you know, a number of different testing methods and inputs that went into that that were charged as a, you know, a lump sum.

Q. And what were you testing people for at that point generally?

A. Primarily for food sensitivity reactions.

Q. Were you providing them supplements at the time as well?

A. Yes. And we also tested nutritional supplements.

Q. So somebody would come in at that time and say, "I've been feeling tired and don't really know why." And what would you do with a typical patient or typical client at that time?

A. We would do the muscle testing procedure in which we would test for indications of energetic imbalances on different acupuncture meridians, indications of nutrient deficiencies from that testing. Also during that time we pretty much used blood tests also.

Q. What kinds of blood tests?

A. Standard CBC and chem screen.

Q. Who was the person in your office who drew the blood?

A. There wasn't anybody in our office who did it. We sent people out to a local lab we worked with or to a hospital we worked with.

Q. And the results would come back to you at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And you would read the results?

A. Yes.

Q. And did they form part of the basis for your recommendations to that particular client?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to talk about your training when it became formalized I suppose which was after the initial period when you first got the machine and worked off the manual and essentially taught yourself. You said that you started working with a mentor when you came to Seattle; who was that mentor?

A. Douglas Leber, L-e-b-e-r, who had invented another EDT instrument called the Computron.

Q. That was in '86?

A. That would have been in '87 and '88.

Q. Describe your training.

A. I would spend time at his office with him demonstrating testing on me and showing me how to do the testing.

Q. He's located here in Seattle?

A. At that time he was located in Kent.

Q. And what are his qualifications; what does he do?

A. He was almost a graduate of John Bastyr in naturopathy. He left the school before completing his degree there and has a licensure I believe in acupuncture.

Q. So he was an acupuncturist; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you would go to his office and get trained?

A. Yes.

Q. And over what period of time?

A. I don't remember exactly, but numerous times I was down there during that time period. And I had purchased his instrument during this time period also.

Q. So the first machine -- what was the name of that machine?

A. Vitel.

Q. -- the Vitel you used until you met Dr. Leber; is that correct?

A. He's not a doctor, but yeah.

Q. Mr. Leber.

A. Yeah.

Q. And then you decided to buy a Computron at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. What were the circumstances surrounding that decision?

A. I found the testing to be very difficult to do with the Vitel instrument and inquired to Doug Leber as to why I was having difficulty and also tested out his particular instrument for comparison and concluded that his instrument was easier to use and also it was computerized so it had more features.

Q. How did you meet Mr. Leber?

A. Through a mutual acquaintance that knew what I was doing and said, you know, "Hey, I met this guy recently, and he's making a instrument like what you're dealing with, and you ought to meet him." And so I called him up, and we got acquainted.

Q. And you purchased the Computron from him?

A. Yes.

Q. How much was it?

A. Boy, I'm not sure on that. Most of these instruments usually sell somewhere between -- the whole package between $13,000 and $18,000. And I think they were at the lower end of that. But I don't remember the exact number. I remember I leased it.

Q. You said that Leber invented the Computron?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he manufacture it as well?

A. Yes.

Q. So you purchased it directly from the manufacturer then?

A. Well, I purchased it from one of his distributers technically in Santa Monica, Californi


Q. Who was that?

A. Jim Jose, J-o-s-e.

Q. Describe what the Computron did and how it did it.

A. It's a standard EAV-type instrument with a positive probe and a negative probe in which you're taking GSR, galvanic skin response, readings on the acupuncture points on the fingers or on the toes. It has -- the testing instrument itself is interfaced with a computer that gives a graphic display of the reading being taken and has various lists and items and I guess primarily on that instrument just a graphic display of the point, the point location, that sort of thing and then a recording capability of what the readings were on each measurement that you took.

Q. With regard to the training period that you had with Mr. Leber, are there any difficulties involved with training somebody to use the machine?

A. Oh, many.

Q. Like what?

A. Well, it's not just a mechanical process like teaching somebody how to run an X ray machine or something like that. It involves properly locating the acupuncture points. It involves the right pressure, the right probe angle, the right stroke on the probe, essentially developing a proper technique for testing. And it just takes a lot of practice to do that.

Q. Are there any special skills that you need to develop for it?

A. Not particularly. Some people find it easier to do than others, to learn than others. But I wouldn't say there's any particular pre-requisite skill.

Q. Which people would be better at it say than others; are there any general characteristics?

A. If I knew that, it would save me a lot of time in recruiting and training people. I'm not sure after 18 years with working with this and training people that I know the answer to that question. But I have observed that some people have more dexterity I guess you would say with the fingers. And beyond that I'm just not sure if there's any particular characteristic that helps. I wish I knew, but I don't.

Q. Have you had any training related to acupuncture?

A. No.

Q. Any training related to finding meridian points?

A. Yes. And I should add to the previous answer that I haven't had training relative to needle acupuncture. I have had training in the context of the EDT instruments in terms of locating acupuncture points.

Q. You're not an acupuncturist, are you?

A. No, I'm not.

Q. That's a licensed profession in the state, isn't it?

A. That is my understanding, yes.

Q. Have you had any training in Chinese medicine?

A. That has been -- there is indirectly training in that automatically with working with the EDT instrument in that you are using acupuncture points and you're dealing with energy imbalances and other concepts from Oriental medicine. So Oriental medicine is dealt with to some degree in virtually all of the training that I've had.

Q. Specifically what training had have you had in acupuncture techniques?

A. Again, I've had none relative to needle acupuncture. In terms of the EDT, the training that would relate would be primarily the location of the points that we test with the EDT instrument and the location of the meridians.

Q. And has that been hands-on training? Has that been seminars? What kind of training specifically?

A. Both. The mentoring with Leber, any of the seminars that I've attended from the first one dealing with the EDT instrument have all dealt with that concept.

Q. Have you taken any formal classes at any colleges or universities relating to acupuncture?

A. No, I have not.

Q. Have you taken any formal classes with regard to Chinese medicine at a college or university?

A. No.

Q. You've never practiced acupuncture, have you?

A. No.

Q. With regard to your training with Mr. Leber, that was over a period of how many months?

A. It would be -- I think all total there was probably a couple of year time period that we spent a fair amount of time together. But I would say on a very regular basis for perhaps six months.

Q. And when you say "regular basis," how many hours a week did you spend with him?

A. Well, it wasn't on a regular time frame, but I had many multi-hour sessions with him. I couldn't say exactly how many. In some cases I would have seen him every week, and in other cases it might have been a month that might have elapsed in between times.

Q. What exactly did you do specifically? Did you have patients or clients at those sessions with him?

A. I think in some cases there was someone else there. I think in one case my wife was with me and he did some testing on her. And I think in another instance or two he had one of his clients there that he was testing and demonstrating and teaching me as he was doing it.

Q. So what percentage of the time was there somebody there besides you and Mr. Leber?

A. I don't really recall for sure in terms of a percentage, but I would say perhaps half the time.

Q. And just ballpark, if you don't mind, how many hours do you think you spent with Mr. Leber during your training period?

A. All of my times with him perhaps 100 hours.

Q. And what training had Mr. Leber had using the Computron?

A. Leber personally trained under Dr. Voll in Germany and under Dr. Schimmel in Germany, S-c-h-i-m-m-e-l. And also Dr. Karamer, K-a-r-a-m-e-r, is another leading German physician that deals with this. So he had studied in Europe with them. And beyond that I don't know specifically what training other than as I mentioned before he had completed three-and-a-half years of work at John Bastyr toward a naturopathy degree.

Q. Where is he now?

A. He's in the Dallas, Texas area.

Q. Is he still practicing?

A. I believe so. I was told by Dr. Allen when I last talked with her that he had had a stroke or something and was I gather kind of physically incapacitated. So I don't know that he is still practicing right at this point.

Q. When did he leave the Seattle area?

A. I think early 1990s, but I don't know exactly what year.

Q. And he offered EDT testing out of his Kent office; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. During this period of time training you were seeing clients in your Bellevue facility?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you using the Computron with them?

A. Yes. I was also using it or I guess the previous instrument, the Vitel I was using at Northwest Oncology Clinics too.

Q. So during this period of time you were running your Bellevue clinic, and we'll talk about the inception of that little bit later. But for now you were running your Bellevue clinic using the Computron, and you were also working at the Northwest Oncology Clinic; is that correct?

A. No. I didn't have the Computron at the time I was working at Northwest Oncology. I bought it soon after I was no longer with them.

Q. Okay. I misunderstood. I thought you said you were using the Vitel --

A. The Vitel instrument I had at the time I was working with Northwest Oncology, and the Computron was purchased soon after I terminated there.

Q. Did you use the Vitel instrument while you were working at Northwest Oncology?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you use that to test cancer patients as well?

A. Yes, under the direction of Dr. Warner and Dr. Bakken.

Q. And you mentioned that Dr. Warner had passed away. Is Dr. Bakken, is he still in the area?

A. I believe he's practicing in Tacoma right now.

Q. And was it with their approval that you were using the Vitel machine?

A. Yes. I was specifically hired to do that among other things in nutritional consulting.

Q. So you were using the Computron at the time you were training with Dr. Leber in your Bellevue facility. And at the time were you advertising your services?

A. Yes. Beginning in late 1986 when I first moved into the area we did some newspaper advertising initially.

Q. Were you doing any seminars at that time?

A. Just small seminars in the office.

Q. Would you describe what that means.

A. Free seminars on a particular topic like on fatigue or PMS or on, you know, some particular health problem and would involve a brief informal lecture to the group and a demonstration of the testing we did at the time.

Q. So were you integrating the Computron in your testing procedures at that time pretty regularly?

A. Initially -- again, at that particular point we didn't yet have the Computron, just had the Vitel when I first moved to Bellevue and began practicing there. Later on -- I discontinued those seminars and didn't start my present seminars until November of 1988.

Q. Back up a little bit here just so we're clear on chronology. So you were using the Vitel machine when you first got to Bellevue. At some point you stopped using that and you started using the Computron. And you said that you were doing seminars at that time in 1986 but they were on an informal basis in your office; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. We'll get to the Sick and Tired seminars that you started doing later. But I'm going to focus on those earlier years before you were doing the Sick and Tired seminars. Did you use the Computron on all of your clients at that time?

A. Yes, I believe so.

Q. And this was during your period of training as well; correct?

A. Do you mean the training with Leber?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, I was still spending time with him.

Q. And were you advertising the EDT testing at that time as well?

A. You know, I don't believe so, not other than we had a predecessor to this brochure of Exhibit 1.

Q. So that predecessor to Exhibit 1, did that contain information about electrodermal testing on it?

A. I'm not absolutely certain of that. It's going back quite a few years now and quite a few brochure revisions ago. I can't say with certainty that we referred specifically the EDT during that time period. I just don't know, and I don't have a copy of the brochure that we were using at that time.

Q. You said that early on when you were in Oregon most of your testing involved kinesiology, muscle testing, that sort of thing. Did it gradually evolve into a primary emphasis on EDT?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: Yes, it did evolve into that.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: At what time?

A. I would say with getting the Computron instrument from Leber's company and getting trained by him in how to use it.

Q. Let me back up a sec here. Leber's company is what you just referred to. What was the name of his company?

A. Computronix with i-x on the end.

Q. Did he own the company?

A. Yes.

Q. Anybody else in this area purchase a machine from him that you know of?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Dr. Jonathan Wright in Kent, Dr. Anthony Imkamp, I-m-k-a-m-p, M.D., in Federal Way I think at the time. There were others, but those are the only two that I'm definitely aware of had purchased instruments from Leber.

Q. So during the time that you were being trained by Mr. Leber, you were seeing clients, you were using the Computron machine to test them; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you consult with Mr. Leber about the results of those tests at any time?

A. I may have at certain times. I didn't really regularly consult with him on each and every case or anything.

MR. BISHIN: Counsel, I'd like to take a break shortly. Is this a good time for you?

MS. SELIS: Yeah, this is a fine time.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: We're back on the record, and you're still sworn in. I just want to backtrack a little bit some questions to follow up on some of the things we talked about earlier. Prior to '83 when you opened your clinic in Oregon, what was your clinical experience with actual clients?

A. I had done some of the muscle testing procedure at seminars that I had done in the context of training people in an advanced seminar to do some of the techniques that I was using. That would be the extent.

Q. So these seminars were put on by whom?

A. Various organizations, most often churches.

Q. So the muscle testing that you did, the other kinesthetic tests that you did when you opened your clinic in 1983 you learned at seminars that were sponsored by churches; is that correct?

A. I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your question. I thought you were indicating who sponsored the seminars that I did this at I took that as meaning. That isn't where I learned it. I learned it from various seminars that I took where I learned how to do the techniques.

Q. Let me clarify the question, I'm sorry. I was trying to understand what actual hands-on experience you had with clients prior to the time that you opened your business in 1983.

A. I think I answered it correctly then.

Q. So it was through seminars -- is that correct -- that you had taken?

A. No, seminars that I was teaching.

Q. Okay. So let me back up a little bit then. You had learned how to work with clients to do muscle testing in what context?

A. Through seminars I attended.

Q. And who were those seminars put on by?

A. The primary one I remember was put on by Valerie Seaman or Seamans, S-e-a-m-a-n, from the Sacramento area. And I believe she was a registered nurse that was teaching applied kinesiology muscle testing.

Q. How long was that seminar?

A. I attended two different seminars that were both two days in length I believe.

Q. And shortly after that you started using the techniques learned on other people at seminars where you were the --

A. Eventually.

Q. Let me finish the question.

A. I'm sorry.

Q. I'll restate the question. Eventually after taking these seminars you started seminars of your own where you used the techniques that you learned at the previous seminars; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And these were seminars that were primarily put on by churches; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do at those seminars?

A. They were in a workshop format teaching people how to do the basic muscle testing techniques, the locations of the various trigger points that we were using and how to test nutritional supplements or other remedies, primarily those areas.

Q. What science or what scientific background were you relying on in doing those seminars?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: The best known work on this is a book called Touch for Health by Dr. John Thie, T-h-i-e, D.C., a chiropractor in Pasadena.

A. One of the seminars that was the text -- that I took, that was the textbook for. There was another chiropractor that developed one of the techniques that we doing. I think his name was Robert Ridler, R-i-d-l-e-r. And that's where the information, you know, came from originally.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So it's primarily chiropractic; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And after you did the seminars -- and let me ask you how many seminars did you do prior to opening your clinic?

A. We're talking about seminars I presented?

Q. Correct, yes.

A. Of seminars I presented where I taught people to do the muscle testing, I don't recall exactly. But I would say it would have been in the neighborhood of maybe eight to ten.

Q. And that was your hands-on experience with clients up until the time that you opened your clinic; is that correct?

A. There was two other instances that come to mind where Dr. Corinne Allen, previously mentioned, set up appointments for me in her practice to do the muscle testing technique I was using on her clients.

Q. And when you set your clinic up in 1983, was it to do this muscle testing?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to switch topics here just to follow up on some of the things we talked about earlier. We talked about the books that you had sold and that you mentioned that were best sellers. Where are they sold?

A. The first one, Eat, Drink and Be Ready is out of print. The small booklet ones, the three of those are sold in health food stores. And the last one, Body, Mind and Health is primarily sold through my own clinics and at my own seminars.

Q. Do you have a publisher?

A. That one is published by our own company.

Q. What about the pamphlets?

A. Originally The Junk Food Withdrawal Manual was published by Harvest Press in Fort Worth, Texas. Subsequently we took it over and have self-published it since.

Q. What about Eat, Drink and Be Ready; who was that published by?

A. That was also published by Harvest Press in Fort Worth, Texas.

Q. When was it taken out of print?

A. We did a very large initial printing, and that was the one and only printing of 104,000 in the summer of 1977.

Q. And did they all sell?

A. We have about 40 copies left.

Q. Did anybody else distribute them besides you?

A. My coauthor.

Q. Who was your coauthor?

A. W.P. Strube, S-t-r-u-b-e in Houston Texas.

Q. And what does W.P. Strube do?

A. I have not had any contact with him in about 15 years. I suspect he's deceased by now. But he was a retired insurance company executive and also worked with Campus Crusade for Christ setting up their audio-visual department originally.

Q. We talked about your employment at Northwest Oncology and the reason that you were terminated because they weren't getting reimbursed for your services. Was one of the conditions of your employment that they were reimbursed for your services?

A. No, that wasn't discussed when I was hired. Perhaps I can elaborate on that a little bit more to get to the heart of your question. They were having financial trouble at the time. They had called in an analyst to look at all of their income and expenses. And the analyst's recommendation was that they were losing money from my part of the practice. So that was kind of how it happened. And then I had been hired by Dr. Bakken who was very keen on what I was doing and on my approach. I was terminated by Dr. Warner who had more reservations. He about a month later terminated Dr. Bakken. And so there was a sort of a whole shakeup with the organization that happened at that time that I ended up being in the midst of.

Q. Was Dr. Warner an oncologist?

A. Yes.

Q. We talked about the people who provided EDT in this area, or the people who at least at the time you purchased your Computron machine had had a machine or had purchased it. Is there a community of EDT practitioners in this area?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: Do you mean by your question is there a group that meets regularly or something like that?

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Yeah, talks, meets, consults with each other.

A. Not to my knowledge. At various times I've had -- you know, other practitioners have talked with me or we've more often met at seminars or something like that. But I'm not aware of any ongoing group or formal or informal connection.

Q. I want to focus a little bit on when you purchased the Computron from Mr. Leber or Mr. Leber's company. At that time did you receive any written materials about the machine?

A. My recollection is that they had a manual that went with it, yes.

Q. Did you use that manual as part of your work with the machine?

A. I'm sure I did.

Q. Do you recall what the manual told you how to do?

A. I mainly remember instructions in terms of loading the software or the, you know, the operation of the computer and that sort of thing. I don't recall specifically beyond that the details of what they covered in their manual or instructions.

Q. Did the manufacturer or Mr. Leber say that the machine could be used to balance energy?

A. No.

Q. What was the machine to be used for?

A. Well, the machine does not treat. So I would say no to your previous question because the machine has no capability of balancing energy, nor does any other EDT machine. The machine is to evaluate the energetic status in the acupuncture meridians.

Q. Is that what the manufacturer said it could be used for when you purchased it?

A. Yes.

Q. Any other uses besides that?

A. I don't recall anything specifically from the manufacturer other than describing the testing on the acupuncture meridians.

Q. When you trained with Mr. Leber, did you discover any particular limitations on the use of the Computron?

A. I'm not sure I know how to answer that question. I don't recall any particular frustrations or anything with it of I wish it did this and it doesn't. Nothing like that comes to mind.

Q. Were there things you learned it could not do in terms of assessment?

A. Well, obviously any instrumentation has limitations with what it's going to do or not do. I'm just saying I was not aware of anything that we were particularly interested in that we found it deficient in.

Q. What about your discoveries about the techniques that you would need to be able to use it effectively?

A. Could you be more specific?

Q. Sure. What did you discover about what it took to use it the right way?

A. I discovered that the pressure probe angle, stroke of the probe in taking the reading were very significant.

Q. Anything else?

A. Nothing that really comes to mind relative to your question, no.

Q. When you worked with Mr. Leber, did you actually use the EDT device on another person with him watching you?

A. Yes.

Q. And did he comment on your technique?

A. Yes.

Q. And how did he show you the correct technique? What did he do?

A. Well, a combination of describing and demonstrating how it was done.

Q. Was that actually holding your hand with the probe in your hand?

A. No, I don't believe so.

Q. What did Dr. Leber, or Mr. Leber, tell you about why the machine worked?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: My recollection would be that he would have indicated that the machine was taking galvanic skin response readings on the acupuncture points, told me details about the amount of electrical current that was used. And I don't really know how to answer your question beyond that.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And do you know whether he had done any independent research to determine whether the Computron worked as he said it did?

A. I don't know.

Q. Had he ever published any papers about it?

A. Had he published papers about the Computron?

Q. Yeah.

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Anything about EDT that he had published?

A. I think so, but I'm not absolutely certain. I recollect that he has written some things, and I'm not sure where published. It just sticks in my mind, but I couldn't give you specifics.

Q. Did he do any clinical trials to prove that his machine worked?

A. I am not aware of whether he did or not.

Q. Were you concerned that there was no trial to prove its efficacy at the time you purchased it?

A. Not at all.

Q. Why is that?

A. Well, because it was obvious that it worked.

Q. Because you believed it worked?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: Because I observed that it worked.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And how many clients -- strike that question. When you say you "observed that it worked," do you mean you observed it worked when Mr. Leber used it on his clients?

A. That and that it worked when I was using it.

Q. That was during your training period?

A. And after and ever since.

Q. Okay. Did Mr. Leber tell you that the machine could be used to assess imbalances?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that in any written materials that he gave you?

A. I don't know if it was or not.

Q. You said that you observed that the machine worked. When you say "worked," quote, unquote, what do you mean?

A. What I mean by that is after you spend 18 years working with several thousand people observing, testing a nutritional program and results, the testing is self-vindicating at that point just from experience with working with people.

Q. I don't quite understand that. That's sort of circular. You say it works because you see it works. My question is when you say it works, what do you mean by that? It's effective to do what?

MR. BISHIN: Object, he's answered the question.

MS. SELIS: I don't understand the answer so I'm asking the follow-up. geology

MR. BISHIN: It's one thing to ask a follow-up; it's another to repeat the question.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You can answer.

A. It works relative to determining the imbalances that we were testing for, determining remedies for the imbalances, and then finding upon retesting that the previous imbalances were no longer showing up, that they had corrected. So that's what I mean by works.

Q. Okay. So does it also mean that the remedies that you decided were appropriate for that particular imbalance were the correct remedies?

A. Yes.

Q. When you were using the machine in the early years in '86, '87 and you were still working with Mr. Leber, did you discuss with him what the appropriate remedies were for particular imbalances?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that something that he told you?

A. Yes, in some cases.

Q. So how did you determine in every case what the appropriate remedy was for a particular imbalance?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Are you referring to just during that time period?

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Yeah, let's talk about that time period.

A. It would be a combination of remedies he had told me about and suggested for particular issues and a combination of my own body of knowledge accumulated up to that point from a variety of sources.

Q. At that time EDT testing was relatively new to you; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And if you found a particular energy imbalance, what would be an example of the kind of thing that you would recommend for the client?

A. The primary thing would be to focus on homeopathic remedies, for example, a weakness imbalance on the large intestine point might be addressed by a particular combination homeopathic remedy designed for intestinal support and drainage. That would be one of the things that Leber would have told me about for example.

Q. What's something that you would have come up with on your own based upon on your own body of knowledge?

A. In that same instance using an acidophilus bacteria supplement.

Q. Under what circumstances would you recommend an acidophilus supplement?

A. If there was an indication from the testing of intestinal dysbiosis, if there was in the history reported by the client of digestive disturbance or yeast-related problems for example, then that would tend to be indicated at that point.

Q. Could you define "dysbiosis" for me.

A. Dysbiosis refers to essentially a bad bacteria imbalance in the intestinal tract.

Q. Is it always relative to the intestinal tract, or can it refer to other bacterial imbalances?

A. To my knowledge it's only referred to relative to the large or small intestine.

Q. So your recommendations to clients at that point were a combination of homeopathic remedies and your own suggestions about nutritional supplements; is that correct?

A. Yes. That would include various types of nutritional supplements of course.

Q. Had you had any training in homeopathy at that time?

A. Primarily from Leber at that point.

Q. Had you taken any formal classes in homeopathy?

A. Subsequently I did.

Q. But at that time had you?

A. Not at that time, no.

Q. Are there schools that actually give degrees in homeopathy?

A. I'm not aware of any degrees in homeopathy. I can't think of any. I think there are some certifications and so on.

Q. Do you need a license to practice homeopathy in this state?

MR. BISHIN: I'll object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I'm not an attorney here for giving judgment on the law, but as far as I know no.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do you need any kind of certification to prescribe homeopathic remedies in the state to your knowledge?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I would reject the premise that's implied by the word "prescribe." Homeopathic remedies in most cases are over-the-counter supplements that anyone can buy at a health food store so that the term "prescribe" would not be appropriate. And we don't prescribe anything at Pacific Health Center.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Let me rephrase the question. Do you need any kind of a license or certification to recommend homeopathic remedies in the state to your knowledge?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Again, not as far as I know from my reading of the statute.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And when someone calls themselves a homeopathic doctor, what does that imply to you?

A. Let me ask you to clarify, if they call themselves a homeopathic doctor or just call themselves a homeopath?

Q. A homeopath.

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: All it implies to me is that they are some kind of a health practitioner and they use homeopathic remedies.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You mentioned that you had some subsequent training in homeopathy. Could you describe that for us.

A. Most of the various seminars I've taken over the years concerning EDT have had some element of discussion of homeopathic remedies in them. I took one seminar in Los Angeles a few years ago. I couldn't tell you the exact year, but probably somewhere between 1995 and 1998, on classical homeopathy. And I believe that's the only specific class or seminar that I've had.

Q. How long of a seminar was that?

A. That was a weekend seminar.

Q. Do you know who taught it?

A. Steven Stiteler, and that's S-t-i-t-e-l-e-r, who is a licensed acupuncturist in Southern California.

Q. Have you taken any seminars on acupuncture?

A. No.

Q. Naturopathy?

A. No.

Q. At that seminar on homeopathy were any materials provided to you?

A. Yes.

Q. What were the course materials?

A. Course outline, I don't remember all of what was included, but it was a course outline.

Q. Was that seminar specifically about the use of homeopathy with regard to EDT?

A. No. It was relative to use of homeopathy in general.

Q. Was there any coursework or study done of EDT during that seminar?

A. Yes, it was referred to.

Q. In what context?

A. In the context of being one way of checking for compatible homeopathic remedies.

Q. Was it in passing, or was it a core part of the seminar?

A. I wouldn't say it was a core part, but it was mentioned.

Q. Do you know who sponsored the seminar?

A. I do, but I can't remember the exact name of the organization. It was an organization on bioenergetic medicine; I remember that was in the name. And I attended two or three of their seminars.

Q. Was this an organization that manufactured EDT devices?

A. No. It was strictly an educational organization.

Q. Do you remember where that organization was based out of?

A. They were based out of the Los Angeles are

A. And I just can't recall their exact alphabet soup for what the name was and what it stood for. But part of the name was Bioenergetic Medicine I remember in the name.

Q. Were there any manufacturers present at this particular seminar?

A. No.

Q. Was it mostly practitioners of EDT?

A. It was a combination of practitioners of EDT and of applied kinesiology.

Q. But you said it was on homeopathy.

A. Yes, on classical homeopathy.

Q. So it was presented by homeopaths to practitioners of EDT-type techniques and kinesiology?

A. That was the method being taught, yes.

Q. I want to go back a little bit to the business history. We've touched on it in passing. You first opened in 1983 in Medford, and you started your degree in 1986. Did you subsequently start a clinic -- I'm sorry, you started a clinic in 1986 in Bellevue. Did you start another clinic in Spokane at some point?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. 2,000.

Q. And how long was that clinic in business?

A. For four years.

Q. Did it close recently then?

A. Yes. It closed in April 30th, 2004.

Q. And why did it close?

A. Just declining revenues. The past year we had gone into the red.

Q. And did you set up a new clinic in Idaho?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. In May of 2004.

Q. So that's recent; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that a franchise?

A. No, I own that.

Q. So why did you decide to open in Idaho and close in Spokane?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: My radio program had already been on in the Boise area and was getting good response. We were encouraged by the radio station ownership to expand to the Boise are

A. The economic conditions were considerably better in Boise than they were in Spokane. So it appeared that it would be more viable from a financial point of view.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: How many employees -- we'll go back historically -- did you have in 1983 in Medford?

A. Two.

Q. Was that you and your partner George?

A. That's not counting us. We had a receptionist, and we had a person doing our products and nutritional supplements.

Q. And did that clinic eventually close?

A. Yes, it did eventually.

Q. When?

A. Well, basically when I came up here in October of 1986.

Q. So you closed your clinic in Medford at that time, opened the one in Bellevue?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you opened in Bellevue how many employees did you have at that time?

A. None. It was just me.

Q. And subsequently obviously you hired some employees. When did you hire your first employee?

A. November of 1989.

Q. So from October of 1986 -- is that when you said you started -- to November of 1989 you were a solo operation; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your business address?

A. Our original business address was -- I'm not sure of the number. It seems like it was 700 something on 110th Avenue in downtown Bellevue. It was in the Wayne Building, W-a-y-n-e.

Q. Did you eventually move to a different location?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I think my recollection is that I just had a six-month lease there originally. And I believe I terminated at the end of the six months. So that would be in, I don't know, I guess in March or something of '87.

Q. And then you moved to the new place in March of 1987?

A. At that point I was working a substantial part of my time with Northwest Oncology Clinic, and so I really didn't have much of a private practice then. I think I saw some people at home, moved the office to my home for a few months.

Q. And then did you reopen in a different location as a clinic?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. That would have been in November of 1989.

Q. And at that time you hired employees; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And who did you hire?

A. Shirley Hancuff, H-a-n-c-u-f-f.

Q. And it was just you and Ms. Hancuff at that time at the clinic?

A. At about that same time I hired Cheri, C-h-e-r-i, Carlson to do our product are

A. So there were two.

Q. And Ms. Hancuff was hired to do what?

A. She was originally hired to be a receptionist.

Q. When you say she was "originally hired to be a receptionist," did she eventually do any other duties?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. What did she do?

A. She trained to do the electrodermal testing and then assumed a position doing that at our Bellevue office.

Q. Were you the person who was responsible for her training?

A. Primarily. She also got some training from Doug Leber.

Q. So Mr. Leber was continuing to work with you during that period of time?

A. Somewhat, yes.

Q. Were you paying him to have him train Ms. Hancuff?

A. No.

Q. Did he continue to have his acupuncture practice down in Kent in 1989?

A. I believe he was still there at that point. But I just want to add, though he's licensed in acupuncture, he didn't have an acupuncture practice.

Q. I'm sorry, what was his practice then?

A. He was just doing the EDT testing.

Q. And Ms. Hancuff was receiving training from you and him as well at that time then?

A. And seminars too.

Q. What was Ms. Hancuff's background prior to come you?

A. She had worked as a nursing assistant was her only experience relative to the healthcare field.

Q. Did she have any advanced degrees, any undergraduate degrees?

A. No.

Q. Was she a high school graduate?

A. Yes.

Q. How old was she?

A. Same age as me which I think at that time was 38.

Q. You said she was a nursing assistant; was she a licensed nursing assistant?

A. I don't believe so.

Q. And prior to working with you, was that her last job?

A. No. She was working in her husband's business as a receptionist I believe.

Q. So had most of her work been as a receptionist prior to coming to you?

A. I really don't know her employment history, you know, enough to answer that.

Q. And her education had been at the high school level; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And where is she from originally?

A. I don't know. I know she's lived in a number of places around the country. I'm not sure where she was born.

Q. You said that you did her training and Mr. Leber did some of her training. Did you do most of her training?

A. Yes.

Q. And how many hours do you think she spent with Mr. Leber?

A. I only remember for sure once or twice that Leber was at our office in Bellevue in which she was involved in the training session along with another naturopath that was there that day too. So I don't know, hours wise I don't think she had more than maybe six to eight hours of training with him.

Q. What did her training with you consist of?

A. The training with me would consist of learning how to locate the acupuncture points, how to hold the probe and take a reading, practicing and practicing on that, how to operate the computer, how to load the software, how to save the readings, practicing doing the various testing on me or on someone else, on a test volunteer or something, pretty much those areas.

Q. Did you give her any material to read?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you give her?

A. We have an outline, a training outline that goes through the various steps on how to do everything.

Q. Have you provided a copy of that to us?

A. We have.

Q. Is that something that you provided to us today?

A. That was in the materials we provided in the most recent interrogatories.

Q. So I assume we got that today. I haven't seen it.

THE WITNESS: It's part of what I gave you.

MR. BISHIN: Whatever you gave me I gave you. I think there was some, quote, "training materials," end quote, in there.

MS. SELIS: Okay, thanks.

Q. Did you put together the training materials yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. And was Ms. Hancuff working with you directly when you tested patients?

A. She was doing the first half of the testing originally, and I was doing the second half of the testing. So we normally were not, you know, in the same room at the same time doing the testing.

Q. During her training period did you have her sit in with you when you were testing patients?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have her actually test some patients while you were there?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. And how many hours of training did she have actually working with you and the patient?

A. Well, the overall training would probably involve just a ballpark figure, I would say around 100 hours.

Q. And how many hours of training did you require her to have before she could actually see clients on her own?

A. There wasn't a magic number. It was a matter of being able to demonstrate competency.

Q. How many hours was it before you let her see clients on her own?

A. I would say overall in training she would have had in the neighborhood of 100 hours of training.

Q. How did you determine she was ready to see clients on her own?

A. When she's giving consistent readings, when she's getting the same readings that I'm getting on someone primarily.

Q. Did you give her any training in nutrition, any training in homeopathy?

A. Yes, both.

Q. What did that training consist of?

A. As we would go along explaining what we would do, what possible remedies or nutritional supplements might be appropriate in particular situations, she already had had quite a bit of background in that area from previously being involved in some sales I believe with nutritional supplements in the past and using natural remedies and nutritional supplements with her own family.

Q. So in discussing her previous employment history, you didn't mention that she also sold nutritional supplements as part of her past?

A. I believe she did, also was involved in that are


Q. Did she have to pass any kind of test in order to become ready in your mind to see clients on her own?

A. Nothing formal other than I believe she did complete the C.N.C. exam with the A.A.N.C. organization prior to when she started seeing clients.

Q. Was that your requirement of her?

A. Yes.

Q. At that time when you began in I guess it was November of 1989 in your Bellevue clinic, how many months or weeks was it before Ms. Hancuff was doing the testing as well?

A. I really don't recall exactly how long it was. I remember she was a pretty quick study, one of the quickest studies I've ever had. I think ballpark figure maybe three months.

Q. So sometime in the beginning of January 1990, February 1990 she was doing the testing along with you?

A. Well, probably not that soon. Maybe by March or April I would guess because I'm just thinking of the building we were in. And she was doing just the receptionist job for a few months before we replaced her and she started doing testing.

Q. How many clients did you have on a monthly basis in November going through the next say six months or so?

A. I don't know. Again, a ballpark average since I don't have records of that far back I would say we were seeing maybe 50 people a month on average.

Q. And how much did you charge for an initial visit at that time?

A. At that time it was $195 I believe, and then if they'd attended our seminar and made the appointment from there, it was $149.

Q. And your business generally grew over time; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So you started out with around 50 clients a month in November of '89. And what was the most number, the highest number of clients you ever saw during '89 say to the present in your Bellevue facility?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't know an exact number. I could only approximate on that. I suppose maybe 100, just a ballpark figure.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And you said in your interrogatory answers that we got earlier this week that over time you've seen about 5,000 clients; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's dating from 1983; right?

A. No, that would be dating from 1989.

Q. So if you threw in the ones you saw between '83 and '89, what would that number be?

A. I don't know, maybe another 500 to 1,000 during all of those years.

Q. During what period of time was your clinic the most active, did you see the most number of clients?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form.

THE WITNESS: I think it was fairly consistent between probably between 1990 and, oh, up until the present or within the past year.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And you said you started out by charging $199 for the initial visit. Has that gone up over time?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. How much has it gone up by, and at what points since 1990 has it gone up?

A. I don't remember the exact times when we did price increases, but it's generally been about every, oh, three to four years that we've done a price increase. Speaking of the regular prices, it started out at $195 on the initial visit, and then it went to $245 I think or to 195 -- I'm not sure what the steps were in there -- and then to $345. And then about three years ago I think we changed it to the present price which is $395 on the regular non-seminar price.

Q. What are the factors that have gone into your various price changes?

A. Significant increases in rent and overhead expenses that way, increases in payroll costs, primarily those areas.

Q. I want to talk a little bit about the devices that you've used historically. You bought the Computron in 1986. And we've discussed that. Since having bought it have you seen any documentation which would show that it was an effective device?

A. I haven't seen documentation on that specific device. All of the documentation I'm aware of relates to these types of devices in general.

Q. And just so we're understanding each other, what do you mean when you say "documentation"?

A. Primarily studies.

Q. What studies in particular?

A. Studies such as we've submitted to you published in American Journal of Acupuncture and other places.

Q. Any particular study that you can cite?

A. No, not any particular. It's an accumulated body of knowledge to me. I don't single out one in particular really.

Q. Do you know what the history of the use of the Computron was when you bought it by others apart from you and Mr. Leber?

A. No, I really don't.

Q. When you bought the machine were you aware of any restrictions on its use by the FDA or any other regulatory authority?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall being aware of any such restrictions.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Were you aware that the FDA had opined on it in any sense?

A. No, I was not aware of that.

Q. So Mr. Leber hadn't mentioned anything to you about it?

A. No, I don't recall him ever mentioning anything like that.

Q. Eventually you talked about having sold your first machine and gotten the Computron. You eventually got another type of device, did you not, after the Computron?

A. Yes.

Q. What was that?

A. The Eclosion, spelled E-c-l-o-s-i-o-n.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I don't remember as I indicated in the interrogatories the exact year on that. It was early '90s, but I'm not sure what year.

Q. And who did you purchase it from?

A. Eclosion Corp I believe was the business name, and Dr. Bill Nelson was the owner of the company.

Q. Where was the company located?

A. In the Denver, Colorado area.

Q. So you purchased it directly from the manufacturer at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And was that the only device you were using at the time, or would you continue to use the Computron?

A. I believe we used it exclusively for a time there, yes.

Q. Why did you decide to use that particular machine?

A. It appeared to be an advancement. Technology-wise it had some automated testing functions that were attractive.

Q. What were those?

A. It used a standard biofeedback instrument headband and wristband and had a cycle for doing some automated testing which didn't require testing the individual acupuncture points.

Q. So you were no longer using the probe technique, what you had learned from Dr. Leber?

A. We still had used the probe technique to test the remedies. But the Eclosion allowed for food sensitivity testing for example on an automated function.

Q. So where before you would have taken a probe and put it up to an acupuncture point to determine where the energy imbalances were, you no longer were doing that; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct. Insofar as we were, as I said, still using the probe checking the remedies.

Q. We'll talk about the mechanics of how that works in a little bit. Obviously we haven't gotten to that yet. Did you have any specific training on that particular machine, the Eclosion?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was that training through?

A. Through Dr. Bill Nelson.

Q. He's the manufacturer of it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he come up and train you on that?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did he spend with you?

A. I attended I think two or maybe three seminars that he did in the area, or did in Portland.

Q. And how many days were those seminars?

A. They were again weekend seminars so two days each.

Q. That was to learn how to use the Eclosion machine to do EDT?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you purchased the machine, were you aware of any restrictions on what it could be used for?

A. I wasn't aware of anything other than that it was for doing, you know, galvanic skin resistance readings as with any EDT instrument so nothing beyond that.

Q. Did the manufacturer make any claims about what different purposes the machine could be used for?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: In that instance -- I'm trying to remember what was said. I don't recall any specific directions as to what you would use it for beyond showing you how to use the different functions on the machine and the automated and manual modes that it offered.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Was it being marketed for the purpose of determining energy imbalances?

A. Yes, I would say so.

Q. Was it being marketed for any other purpose, i.e., diagnosing of disease or conditions?

A. Definitely not.

Q. Was it being marketed for any other purpose that you can think of?

A. It was being marketed in terms of their FDA registration on that particular instrument as a biofeedback device, and so biofeedback was certainly one of their marketing emphases.

Q. What is biofeedback?

A. Well, I'm not a biofeedback therapist to give an authoritative definition, but to the best I understand it would involve getting signals from the body through a galvanic device or a muscle response device in response to particular stimuli and often with the implication of consciously modifying those readings, the subject consciously modifying those readings as a therapeutic method.

Q. I'm kind of curious about how this works. As a sort of a medical question or scientific question, when I think of biofeedback -- I'll play this out for you -- I think of pain management for example. Is that what it's used in sometimes?

A. Speaking again of the Eclosion instrument only, it did have a function on it as I recall which was a for lack of a better term a treatment mode that could be used for example with headaches which is one of the more common usages of biofeedback instruments along with pain, you know, as you mentioned. The headache one sticks out in my mind having seen that demonstrated once.

Q. So biofeedback -- and stick with me here because I'm learning about this too. Biofeedback is when based on the readings on the particular machine you as the patient or client try to modify your physical response based on what you're seeing; is that correct?

A. That would be at least the traditional understanding of biofeedback as far as I know.

Q. And so the FDA had approved of it for that particular purpose, for biofeedback?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: That was your understanding --

A. That was my understanding from the manufacturer, yes.

Q. And the manufacturer actually said that; is that also correct?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Was it your understanding that the FDA had also approved it for use in assessing energy imbalances as well or not?

A. The position of that company, the Eclosion Corporation, was that biofeedback on a broader definition encompassed the area of energy imbalances as tested in EDT.

Q. Was there any official word from the FDA that they did in fact include the assessment of energy imbalances as part of the definition of biofeedback?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: To your knowledge.

A. To my knowledge I'm not aware of any.

Q. And how much did that particular machine cost?

A. My recollection is that it was either 16 or $17,000 per instrument.

Q. And how many did you buy?

A. I bought two of them.

Q. So at that time you were seeing 50 to 100 patients a month?

A. Probably, yes.

Q. And were you using any particular machine -- strike that. How many machines then did you have up and operating after you bought the two machines?

A. Just two were operating at any given time.

Q. And what did you do with the Computron again, I'm sorry?

A. Trying to remember the chronology here. I believe the Computron instruments went to our Portland office at the time that we started using the Eclosion instruments in the Bellevue office.

Q. We'll talk about your Portland office. We haven't touched on that yet, but I know it's out there. So the Computron goes down to Portland. You've got two of the new instruments in your Bellevue facility. How long did you use those machines for?

A. To the best of my recollection we used them two years or less.

Q. That's a fairly short time.

A. Yeah.

Q. Why?

A. I didn't like it.

Q. Why not?

A. A variety of reasons. In doing comparison testing, I became convinced that the automated readings were not that accurate, number one. And so I lost confidence in at least some of the testing modalities that were purported with the instrument. Secondly, there were support issues. We found Dr. Nelson to be very unreliable and, you know, just didn't answer the questions and explain the things that we wanted to know and just had a growing frustration really with using the instrument. And I decided that we had better testing, more accurate easier to use with our previous instrument, the Computron, and went back to that.

Q. So you went back to the Computron?

A. Yes.

Q. And that would have been what year then?

A. Again, I'm sorry, I don't know the exact year on this, but I'm thinking it would have been -- I know it would have been before 1995. It could have been as late as 1995. It could have been as early as 1993. It was somewhere in that first half of the '90s that we were using the Eclosion.

Q. And you only at that time had one Computron. So did you have to go out and buy additional machines?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who did you buy them from?

A. I believe I bought one additional one from the manufacturer and two I bought used from other doctors.

Q. The one that you bought from the manufacturer, was that from Computronix?

A. Yes.

Q. And they as you said earlier were out of Texas?

A. Yes. I think I bought one, a second one that is, from them. I'm just trying to remember. I know I bought at least two of them used from other practitioners.

Q. Which other practitioners did you purchase them from?

A. I'm sorry, I don't remember now. One was a naturopath, and they may have both been naturopaths. I know one was a naturopath, but I don't remember their names now.

Q. Do you remember which models they were?

A. They were their original model. I'm not sure by a number or what it was called. But it was the model they used, the Commodore computer, both of those.

Q. Was that the same model and type you had down in the Portland facility?

A. It was the same as the one I originally bought other than the one I originally bought was using a portable computer rather than a desktop.

MR. BISHIN: Can we take a quick break?

(A recess was taken.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: We were talking about the machines. We're back on the record now, and I'll remind you that you're still sworn in. When you get new machines do you to have retrain your staff each time?

A. To some degree, yes.

Q. What degree is that?

A. Depends on the machine, how it's loaded, what functions are on it, how different it is from the previous machine.

Q. Do you usually get trained yourself and then train them, or do they train with you?

A. We've done both. I guess in the last two instances my staff had some training with me in the original training, but then we continued on doing additional training after that just with me.

Q. So I want to just go back to the Eclosion for a second. You said that it was a combination of a wrist mechanism and a head mechanism. And that was the way that people's imbalances were assessed; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And were there any meridian points used in that assessment?

A. Not with that automated function.

Q. And the meridians points, were they used somehow to assess the appropriateness of the supplements or homeopathic remedies that were recommended?

A. Yes. Those points would be tested in that instance.

Q. So in determining whether the imbalance was there, the Eclosion did not use meridian points to do that. But in determining whether the remedy to address the imbalances was appropriate, the meridian points were used; is that correct?

A. Not quite.

Q. A little confusing.

A. I understand the confusion. The primary automated test with the Eclosion that we used was for food sensitivities. All of the other things we tested on the points. So there was testing done on the acupuncture points with the instrument, you know, prior to checking remedies. So there was a combination of some automated tests and some manual tests and then checking remedies.

Q. And eventually you didn't like the machine, went back to the Computron. And did you have to do any retraining at that point?

A. I don't recall just who was working for me at that point in the Bellevue office. The Eclosion for our technician position doing the first part of the testing required very little training because all they had to do was know how to put the headband on and set up the computer and run the test whereas the Computron required considerable training. I just don't remember who was working at that point. I know we lost one employee during that time period with the Eclosion. So either my wife and I were doing all the testing, or we had to take some time training some new people to do the other instrument. I don't remember which.

Q. How long did you use the Computron before you bought a different or an additional machine?

A. In that chronology you're referring to?

Q. Yes.

A. Until whenever that was -- again, I'm estimating sometime mid '90s, '94 or '95, somewhere in there until 1998 I think, June or July of 1998.

Q. And you were using the Computron machine?

A. Up until that time, yes.

Q. And did you eventually decide to purchase a different machine?

A. Yes.

Q. Why was that?

A. The Computron was originally done with a Commodore computer. And they upgraded the system to an IBM-type software and everything, and we could not get the upgrades to work right. And their technical support was very poor, and we weren't able to resolve the issue. And we just gave up and decided to switch to another company.

Q. So when you say their technical support, you're referring to Computronix?

A. Yes, in Texas.

Q. And what exactly did they give you by way of support in general?

A. Well, it was by telephone. And, you know, "I'm having this problem it's doing this; what should I do?" And you do this, and it doesn't work type of thing. So it was just not good customer service.

Q. Did they give you any advice on anything other than the actual use of the computer?

A. No.

Q. So there was nothing in the way of advice about what to do with a particular client --

A. No.

Q. -- or anything else?

A. No.

Q. Anything about particular techniques?

A. No, not at that point.

Q. When you got the Computron machines in the mid-'90s, did you get any additional manuals at that time?

A. You said the Computron in the mid '90s?

Q. Yeah, at one point the Eclosion machine was not satisfactory; so you decided to substitute that with the Computron machines. And I'm going back to that point which I believe was in the mid '90s; right?

A. That's correct. At that point we had a combination -- between the two offices in Portland and in Bellevue we had a combination of instruments that I either bought from Computronix or that I bought from other practitioners. The ones I bought from other practitioners I didn't have any training or manuals or what have you. I was already familiar with the instrument at that point.

Q. So in '98 you decided to go with a different machine. What did you decide to get?

A. The Omega AcuBase.

Q. Why did you decide to get that?

A. I had seen it advertised. One of the medical doctors that was using it and in their advertisements was someone that I knew by reputation and had read some of his books and followed his approaches relative to applied kinesiology.

Q. What was his name?

A. John Diamond, M.D. I think as much as anything repeat advertising. I'd just seen it a number of different places and sources; so I inquired further about it.

Q. Did it do anything different or better than the Computron?

A. It solved the problem of the software issue with being with a P.C. instead of with the Commodore. Of course, that was one of the main things. And the graphics with it and pre-programmed lists of items and so on I liked. So it had some definite advantages over the Computron in my view.

Q. Who manufactured the Omega?

A. Digital Health in at that time I believe Draper, Utah.

Q. And did it have a model number, the one that you purchased?

A. The testing instrument is called the C-29.

Q. As distinguished from what?

A. I'm not aware they had another instrument, but that's what they called that one. So I don't think there was any other model.

Q. So it was the Omega AcuBase C-29; is that the full name of this item?

A. I guess that would be fair, yes.

Q. How much did you pay for that machine?

A. Including a trade-in that they gave me on the four Computron units we had, I got four AcuBase units for I believe it was $28,000.

Q. And how many of them were in your Bellevue facility?

A. Two.

Q. And where were they vis-a-vis your other facilities?

A. The other two were in Portland.

Q. At the time that you purchased them, did the manufacturer indicate to you that there were any restrictions on the use for which they could be put to?

A. I don't recall a statement to that effect, no.

Q. Were you aware that the FDA had restricted their use to any particular process?

A. I was aware of the approval on the instrument as a Class II device for galvanic skin response testing.

Q. And you mentioned earlier that it was your understanding when you bought the original Computrons -- well, not the original, but the Computrons -- that they had been approved for galvanic skin testing and biofeedback. Was that your understanding also when you bought the Omega AcuBase?

A. Actually if I may correct, the biofeedback part related to the Eclosion, not the Computron.

Q. Oh, is it the Eclosion, I'm sorry. Was that your understanding when you purchased the Omega AcuBase as well?

A. I don't remember biofeedback being used but just the galvanic skin response testing relative to the Omega AcuBase.

Q. Galvanic skin response testing, that's I guess the kind of highfalutin phrase for lie detection -- right -- a lie detector?

A. That's one of the applications of that type of testing.

Q. And what other testing can you do with galvanic skin response?

A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with the instrumentation other than the electrodermal testing usages of it so I don't really know. 121

Q. Do you know whether when you purchased the Omega AcuBase if there was any limitation on its use by practitioners?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: What do you mean by limitation on its use?

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Was there a legal limitation that you knew of?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any specific statement by the manufacturer in those terms. I'm only aware of the device being defined as, you know, being registered with the FDA relative to galvanic skin response.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Did the manufacturer tell you that the machine had only been approved for purposes of galvanic skin response and/or biofeedback at the time you purchased it?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: They did not use biofeedback, that term to my recollection. They only would have referred to the galvanic skin response testing.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So I'll rephrase the question. Did the manufacturer tell you at the time you purchased it that its use was limited to the galvanic skin response?

A. I don't recall them making a statement saying the instrument was, quote, unquote, "restricted" (indicating). I do recall that it was indicated that it was registered with the FDA Class II device for that particular purpose.

Q. Was it your understanding that it was limited in terms of what it could be used for by the FDA at that time?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I did not get that understanding at that time, no.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So did you believe at the time that you could use it for whatever purpose you wanted to?

A. Well, I don't think I had that particular concept. That's interesting question. I would say no, I didn't have an understanding that I could use it for anything I wanted to.

Q. Did you have an understanding that you had clear sailing to use it for EDT?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question. Remember you only have to give what you remember.

THE WITNESS: The instrument was designed for doing EDT. So that was my understanding of the usage of the instrument.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: When you say designed for EDT, according to whom was it designed for EDT?

A. According to the manufacturer.

Q. So the manufacturer told you that this machine could be used, should be used, was designed for EDT; is that right? MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I think it would be important to distinguish the difference between the testing instrument and the software. Really the EDT part of it comes through the software, not through the galvanic device itself. The EDT is an application of the instrument.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: But that was sold by the manufacturer as well, wasn't it? It came with the software and hardware together; right?

A. Well, the manufacturer of the instrument, at least according to the FDA approval, was Global Corp. And the software package was selling -- the rest of it was Digital Health. So they are actually under different companies.

Q. So who did you buy it from? Was it Global what?

A. Global Corp.

Q. Did you buy the actual machine from Global Corp.?

A. No, bought it from Digital Health.

Q. Did Digital Health buy it from Global Corp. then?

A. I presume so.

MR. BISHIN: Don't presume.

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So when you bought the machine, you bought the machine and the software together from Digital Health; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You didn't pay any money to Global Corp.?

A. No.

Q. So when you say the manufacturer as we're discussing the manufacturer here today, are you referring to Global Corp., or are you referring to Digital Health?

A. I'm referring to Global Corp. because they manufactured the actual testing instrument.

Q. So the manufacturer is Global Corp., but you bought it from Digital Health who put the software together with the machine itself?

A. Correct.

Q. When you bought the machine did you go to a seminar sponsored by Digital Health to learn about it first?

A. No, they came to me.

Q. So they sought you out first?

A. No, I contacted them, and the Dr. Vaugn Cook from Digital Health flew to Seattle to demonstrate the instruments for me.

Q. What's Dr. Vaugn Cook a doctor of?

A. O.M.D., Oriental medicine.

Q. Are there licensures in Oriental medicine?

A. There are in some states I believe.

Q. You say he was from Utah?

A. He was from Utah, yes.

Q. To your knowledge he had an M.D. in Oriental medicine from Utah somewhere?

A. No, O.M.D. is the degree, not M.D.

Q. So he had an O.M.D. from the state of Utah to your knowledge?

A. You don't get a degree from the state. You get a degree from the educational institution, wherever it was.

Q. I'm just trying to clarify whether it's a licensed profession by the state.

A. I have no knowledge of that as far as the state of Utah.

Q. So he came here and demonstrated the machine for you?

A. Yes.

Q. And did he show you how to use it?

A. Yes, in a sense, given I'd been using this type of instrument for a number of years. I already knew how to use it. He showed me the specifics of their particular instrument.

Q. Did he give you a manual at that time?

A. No.

Q. Did he show you how to use it on a particular client?

A. No.

Q. What did he show you when he demonstrated the machine?

A. He showed me the basic testing and how the graphics appeared, what the different lists were that were pre-programmed into the unit and how to program additional items into it relative to the specific areas we were interested in.

Q. And did you decide to make a purchase at that time when he came to visit you with the machine?

A. I don't remember if I decided that day, but I did shortly afterwards.

Q. How many machines did you buy at that time?

A. Four.

Q. And you traded in your Computrons for the Omega AcuBase?

A. Yes.

Q. How much did you pay for the Omega AcuBase machines?

A. As I said, it was $28,000 counting the trade-ins of the four Computrons.

Q. "Counting the" meaning over and above?

A. I paid them $28,000 plus gave them four Computrons.

Q. Thank you. What machines are you using in your Idaho clinic?

A. The same, the Omega AcuBase.

Q. At the time you got them, which was in '98, you had two of them in the Bellevue clinic, two of them in the Portland clinic, and have you subsequently purchased more then?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. Two.

Q. And are both of those in the Idaho clinic now?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you had any continuing training on the Omega AcuBase?

A. Since that time, no.

Q. Have you attended any other seminars with other practitioners who use the Omega AcuBase?

A. I've attended seminars with other practitioners. Whether they were using that specific instrument or not, I don't know.

Q. I want to go back a little bit, a couple of business questions. Just to bring us up to the present, how many clinics do you currently operate?

A. Three.

Q. Where are they located?

A. Bellevue, Portland and Boise.

Q. And is the Portland clinic owned by you?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a point at which you franchised it to somebody else?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. Let's see, I reassumed ownership of it February 1st, 2002, so it would have been franchised to Shirley Hancuff in I guess it was in 2000. It was about two years that she owned it as a franchise.

Q. And during that period of time did you spend time at the clinic as well?

A. Yes.

Q. And we'll talk about that in a little while. You said that your wife was involved at the clinic as well. When I asked you about your number of employees, were you not including her?

A. Employees at which office at which time?

Q. I think I asked you about Bellevue, and you mentioned at that time that you had Shirley Hancuff and a receptionist, and you didn't mention anybody else. And I'm wondering whether you're including your wife in these questions.

A. My wife worked at that time -- the context of that question was back in late 1988, early 1989. My wife worked intermittently in the clinic. She did not do electrodermal testing at that time.

Q. Did she eventually come to do it?

A. Yes.

Q. What is your wife's name?

A. Nancy.

Q. So you currently have three clinics. How many employees do you have now?

A. I guess about 12 all total.

Q. How are they distributed among the three?

A. We have one employee in Boise, two in training which are technically employees though they're not really filling a position yet; so I didn't count them. We have four employees in Portland.

Q. And those two in training are where, in Boise?

A. In Boise, yes.

Q. Four in Portland?

A. Four in Portland. And then in Bellevue -- make sure I get my numbers right. Six or seven in Bellevue.

Q. And what's your business structure; are you a corporation?

A. We are an S-corp.

Q. What does your corporation own?

A. It owns the fixtures and inventory. That would be the extent of it.

Q. And does it own any of your real property?

A. No.

Q. Who are the officers of your corporation?

A. I hold both the president and secretary positions on the all three of the corporations.

Q. All three of the corporations?

A. Yes.

Q. There are three corporations?

A. Three.

Q. What are the names of the various corporations?

A. Pacific Health Center, Inc., is the Bellevue practice. Pacific Health Center Portland, Inc., is the Portland office, and Pacific Health Center Boise, Inc., is the Boise.

Q. Do you also have a sole proprietorship called Total Living?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the function of that?

A. That's our publishing of my books and audiotapes.

Q. You I take it are the sole proprietor of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you registered in the state of Washington?

A. We're registered in the -- we were in Washington until we moved to Oregon, and now it's registered in Oregon.

Q. With regard to these corporations, the three, are they registered in the state of Washington?

A. The Bellevue is a Washington corporation. The Portland one is an Oregon corporation, and the Boise is also an Oregon corporation.

Q. Are you also partner in Pacific Health Family, Limited Partnership?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell us what that is.

A. That entity was used for royalties from the Portland office when it was franchised to Shirley Hancuff. It's inactive at the present time.

Q. Who are the members of that partnership besides you?

A. I'm the general partner and also limited partner, and my wife and daughter are limited partners.

Q. And that partnership also holds your real property, doesn't it?

A. Not -- you're asking about Kline Pacific Health Limited, Family Limited Partnership?

Q. Pacific Health Family, Family Limited Partnership, does own your real property as well?

A. No.

Q. Who owns your real property?

A. Monte L. Kline, Family Limited Partnership.

Q. So that's a second limited partnership. Who are the members of that partnership?

A. The same. I'm the general partner, and my wife and daughter are limited partners.

Q. And where are you registered as a partnership for that one?

A. In Washington.

Q. Do you have any other partnerships?

A. No.

Q. Any other business entities with which you are associated?

A. No.

Q. What has been the annual income of each of your corporations for the last three years? And let's talk gross income and then income.

A. I could not give you exact figures off the top of my head, but I'll approximate as best I can. The gross for the Bellevue office has been during the last three years between $600,000 and $800,000. The net -- let's see, the most recent year the net was $1,900 for 2003. And the previous years I don't remember exactly, but I believe -- let's see, no, the previous year for Bellevue the net was I think just under $40,000. And I believe the year before that -- that would be 2002, and then in 2001 would be the year before that. I believe that year it was more around 70-some thousand. Relative to Boise, of course, is new so it hasn't had a full year of operation. Portland was a -- for 2003 the gross was I think around $180,000. The net was a negative, about a negative $40,000. The previous year -- oh, boy, I am not sure on the previous year in Portland because that falls within where I reassumed ownership of the franchise. I couldn't give you a good estimate on that one. The Spokane office when it was in operation was generally in the $180,000 gross are

A. And the net was -- the highest during that period the net was about $20,000 I believe. And I think the next year it was more like 10 or $12,000. And the final year it was like $5,000 net.

Q. What's been your personal income from all of your business ventures for the last three years?

A. For 2003 it was a negative number because of the losses and assuming the ownership again of the Portland office as well as legal fees. And the previous year I'm not sure. I hesitate to throw out a number and be considerably off, but it would be -- it's generally been in the neighborhood of, oh, anywhere from 50 to $80,000 I guess would be a ballpark on that without checking specific figures from my tax returns.

Q. And what salary have you been paid by your various businesses over the last three years?

A. The Pacific Health Center Bellevue, I receive a $12,000 a year salary, and the rest of my income is taken in the form of dividends through the S-corp. And I don't receive a salary at this point from the other two.

Q. What's been the value of those dividends that you received from the S-corp?

MR. BISHIN: Value or amount?

Q. BY MS. SELIS: The amount

A. That would be over the three years period on average it's been in the neighborhood of $60,000 a year.

Q. And does your wife take a salary as well?

A. Not at the present time. She has in the past.

Q. And has she during any of the last three years?

A. I think three years ago she was still taking a salary out of the Bellevue office but not in the past two years.

Q. What was her salary three years ago?

A. It was also $12,000 per year.

Q. Did she receive any dividends from the S-corp as well?

A. No, not separate from mine.

Q. Anybody else receive any dividends from the S-corp?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any other sources of income?

A. Some rental income when we had rental property which we don't at the present time.

Q. Had you had rental property at any time during the last three years?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was that?

A. Condo in Hawaii, sold a year and a half ago. And then also a rental condo in Green Valley, Arizona.

Q. Did you sell that condo also?

A. Sold that two months ago.

Q. And how much did you get for the sale of the condominium in Hawaii?

A. I believe it was either 270 or $275,000.

Q. How about the one in Green Valley?

A. $72,000. MS. SELIS: I'd like to introduce an exhibit. (Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You have been handed what has been marked as Exhibit 2; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you identify that for us.

MR. BISHIN: Look at it first.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Yeah, look at it. Take your time.

A. It's the client manual of Pacific Health Center.

Q. And was this written by you?

A. Yes.

Q. And when did you write it?

A. Beginning 1989 with various revisions over the years.

Q. Have the revisions all been done by you?

A. Yes.

Q. And for what purpose do you use it?

A. We use this for client education on diet, exercise, other health issues.

Q. Does it provide answers to questions if clients have questions?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you actually distribute it then to your clients?

A. Yes. It's given to new clients on their initial appointment.

Q. And you said that you started writing it in '89; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it's been distributed to clients since that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And are your employees instructed to give this to clients as part of their initial visit?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know if clients are told to look to it to answer questions in general?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. And who tells them that?

A. The technician, the person that does the first half of the electrodermal testing is the primary person that goes over this with the new client, or a consultant doing the second half of the testing might also refer to it.

Q. Is this a true and accurate copy of it? I want to make sure this is a real copy.

A. To the best of my knowledge it appears to be, yes.

Q. How often do you make changes in it?

A. Whenever we find something that needs updating so not on any particular schedule. MS. SELIS: I'll move to keep this as part of the record, and we'll refer to it later. I'm sure we will have questions later on so I want to pace this so we have some time. (A discussion was held off the record.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: I want to focus on the present. We'll come back to the client manual at a later time. For now let's talk about what's going on right now with the business. You said you've got how many employees now, 12?

A. Oh, total was I guess it would be, yeah, probably 12.

Q. Okay. And how many of them do the actual electrodermal testing?

A. There are four not counting my wife and myself that do the testing.

Q. Let's count you and your wife. So there are six people who do it?

A. That would make six.

Q. Who are the people who do it in each of the locations?

A. In Bellevue Susan Owen and Karen Perrault, spelled P-e-r-r-a-u-l-t. In Portland Shirley, name has been changed so it's now Iverson.

Q. Formerly Hancuff?

A. Formerly Hancuff. And Lisa Duaei, spelled D-u-a-e-i. And in Boise, myself and my wife.

Q. So how much time are you spending in Boise these days?

A. On average two days every other week.

Q. And is that when the clinic is open?

A. That's when we're open for appointments. It's open for people to phone or to order products otherwise.

Q. So you've got six people who are doing the testing. How long has each of them been doing it?

MR. BISHIN: Let me interpose an objection to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I have been doing the testing since 1986. My wife Nancy has been doing the testing for boy, I don't know, probably 10 or 12 years. Shirley Iverson, formerly Hancuff, has been doing the testing since 1989, Lisa Duaei for two years and Karen Perrault and Susan Owen since '98 so I guess that would be six years.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: And have there been other people who have done the testing who have come and gone from the clinics?

A. Yes.

Q. Who are those people?

A. In Bellevue Falene Giaimo, F-a-l-e-n-e G-i-a-i-m-o I think. Yolanda Goff, G-o-f-f. Going way back I can't remember all of the names. Cheri Carlson that I referred to earlier did the testing. Loranna, L-o-r-a-n-n-a, Carlson. That's all I can remember off the top of my head for Bellevue. And in Portland, oh boy, let's see, Kimberly Sanchez and -- I can't remember her name. And then of course in Spokane were two people doing it there prior to the closure. That would be Jan Scarcello, S-c-a-r-c-e-l-l-o, and Pat Mattfeld, M-a-t-t-f-e-l-d. And they did it for four years.

Q. And did you have any particular training regimen that you used for these people? We'll call them your testers.

A. Yes.

Q. What was that?

A. At least the outline of that has been provided to you in the interrogatory materials. So it's in the form of an outline procedures text for how to explain different parts of the testing or how to explain the client manual or other things that we want them to know.

Q. So my question was about the training regimen. So you give us in your responses to our interrogatories and requests for production a manual, an outline of the training; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I haven't had a chance to look at that. So I would like you to tell us what it involves.

A. Of course the training itself is done by sitting down and showing them how to do it.

Q. And you do that?

A. Yes. And also Susan Owen at the Bellevue office does training also. And Shirley Iverson at the Portland office does training there. But what the written materials cover is how to turn on the computer, how to load the software, how to move around in the computer to get to the different areas you want to get to, how the testing's done, how it's described to the client, how each section is explained -- basically those things.

Q. And is there any hands-on training that is part of the training regimen?

A. Yes, it's all-hands on really.

Q. And by hands-on let me tell you what I mean, make sure we're talking the same language. I mean having a person there, a trainer, who is sitting with the trainee showing them physically how to do the testing.

A. Yes, that's the way the entire training is done.

Q. And about how many hours of training do you give your testers?

A. Generally we figure it takes in the neighborhood of four months of once-a-week training sessions to train someone to do the initial testing. The training sessions are two to two-and-a-half hours in length. So I guess we're talking about oh, somewhere probably in the range of 30 to 40 hours in formal training sessions.

Q. That's one on one?

A. That's one on one. And in addition to that they would observe testing going on with someone already filling that position.

Q. And you've done the testing you said. Shirley's done the test -- I'm sorry.

A. The training.

Q. I'm sorry, strike that question. Shirley's done the testing. You've done the testing and --

MR. BISHIN: Take your time.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: We'll start over again. You've done the training. Shirley's done the training. And anyone else who's done the training?

A. Susan Owen at the Bellevue office.

Q. And do you have any internal rules about how long a person has to train for before he or she is able to see a client on their own?

A. No. It's all based on competency.

Q. Who is the judge of that competency?

A. I am.

Q. Exclusively?

A. Exclusively.

Q. So you don't farm out that responsibility to anyone else?

A. Let me correct that remark. I am relative to the Bellevue office or anywhere where I'm doing the training. That area is delegated to Shirley Iverson at the Portland office. She's the judge of when they're ready. But the Bellevue or, of course, in Boise I'm the judge of that.

Q. And is there a period of time during which you double-check their results to make sure that they're doing their testing accurately?

A. Yes. When they're first working for real with actual clients we do quite a bit of rechecking to make sure that they're getting consistent readings with what an experienced person is getting.

Q. How do you do that?

A. The testing as I mentioned is divided into two halves. So we're talking about the person that's doing the second half of the testing checking the results on the technician who's doing the first half of the testing. So typically what would happen is they come in for the second half of the testing with the consultant. And first visually we would look at the readings and see if they looked right in terms of the presentation of the particular case. Some things are just obvious that they are red flags for false positives or false negatives. Then we would actually retest some of the more common foods, nutrient deficiencies, other areas we might do in the testing protocol and see if we're getting the same reading.

Q. I didn't want to get into the particulars of the testing until later. But it seems like we're going to have to at least explain some of this just so I understand.

A. Sure.

Q. What generally happens during the first part of the testing, and what generally happens in the second part of the testing?

A. In the first half of the testing -- and I would make reference to this is covered in detail in the interrogatories we just submitted as well. The first half of the testing the four areas are checked, biological -- score index, nutrient deficiencies, food sensitivities and environmental sensitivities. The second half of the --

Q. Let me stop you. That's the part that's done by the technician?

A. Technician, yes.

Q. Okay, got it.

A. The second half of the testing done by the consultant, involves primarily checking toxins, energetically weak organs and then specific remedies and nutritional supplements.

Q. So the second part, the consultant is the one who decides what the appropriate remedies would be?

A. Yes.

Q. So the testers who you've identified, are they people who do only the first half?

A. The ones I identified I included both groups. So to distinguish the people that are currently doing the consultant half, the second half, at the Bellevue office Susan Owen and Karen Perrault, at the Portland office Shirley Iverson and then myself at whatever office I happen to be at.

Q. And you mentioned that the consultant can note red flags if there is a problem with the initial part of the testing. What would examples of those red flags be?

A. Someone that had a number of health complaints and yet showed very few food sensitivities or very few nutrient deficiencies would be a red flag for example.

Q. So there are certain correlations that you're aware of that a trainee or new technician wouldn't otherwise notice?

A. Well, they should notice it. They might not because of lack of experience.

Q. What might they be doing wrong that they would get this information wrong?

A. They could be missing the testing point on the finger. So point location, pressure, moisture, probe angle, and probe stroke are pretty much the variables with the testing if you're not getting a correct reading.

Q. You mentioned those earlier, and I want to explore that a bit. Pressure means how hard you press the probe on the skin?

A. Right.

Q. So if you press harder, you'll get a different reading than if you press lighter?

A. You can get an incorrect reading. Each person is going to be individual according to skin moisture and other considerations. So it does vary. But we have controls to check this with and establish baselines.

Q. What are your controls based on? How do you control something as variable as the pressure with which one person places a probe on other person's body?

A. By controls I mean in a scientific sense we know that the initial reading on our type of instrument should be in a particular range with nothing else connected into the circuit, just the raw reading on that acupuncture point. We know that when the amplifier filters are added into the circuit as explained in the materials we've submitted that the readings should go down to the 50 reading on the instrument. So we have a known in that direction. And then we have another known when we add in a particular known toxin which should then elevate the reading up to 60 or above.

Q. And when you say known, how do you know this?

A. They've been experimentally established over the years of doing this type of testing.

Q. By whom?

A. By in this case Dr. Helmet Schimmel from Germany, the founder of the Vega test method.

Q. Does he have clinical studies that show that you're supposed to do it a certain way?

A. I don't know. Since he invented the method, I couldn't say what all of the background or studies are. I'm not aware.

Q. So you rely on the fact that he invented it and he says this is the way to do it?

A. And I've observed it several thousand times.

Q. And with regard to pressure, how do you instruct someone to correct the level of pressure that they are placing on the probe? How can you tell whether it's wrong or not?

A. If they're getting too high a reading, it's too much pressure. If they're not getting a high enough reading, it may be too little pressure based upon the parameters that I mentioned to you a couple minutes ago.

Q. What about stroke; what's that?

A. Stroke, this is one of these one picture is worth a thousand words situations. It's a lot easier to show than it is to put into words. But the probe is held like I would hold a pen in my hand (indicating). And then when the point is touched it's not just a matter of touching it to this and applying a certain amount of pressure. It's a matter of moving that into a particular angle in relationship to the acupuncture point. And that involves a stroke in which it's going to be moved downward like this (indicating).

Q. You're moving the pen that you have applied to just below your knuckle about two inches or an inch down.

A. Right. Now, the angle is significant. The smoothness of the stroke is significant, the amount of pressure, and that is being incrementally increased as the stroke is going down. So there are several things that are happening at once, and someone has to be trained how to do all of those in the right way in order to get an accurate reading.

Q. How do you determine the correlation between your reading and energy imbalance? Is that something that's done on the computer itself?

A. The instrument, the GSR instrument that's taking the reading is connected by serial interface to the computer so that you have a graphic representation of the reading there. So it shows in both numerical terms and in terms of a bar graph what the level of the reading is whether it's a 50 or a 60 or a 65 or whatever.

Q. And its correlation to a particular imbalance is based on what you the practitioner know?

A. It's based upon what you happen to be testing at that particular time and what filter is engaged within the computer software.

Q. We'll get more into the actual testing itself a little bit later. I want to talk about the training part. The reference materials from which the trainees work are all provided by you. And is the sum of them what you have given us in response to our requests for production?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you provide any training in nutrition to your testers?

A. Yes.

Q. What does that involve?

A. Again, it would be one-on-one relative to the basic things. We teach the clients from the client manual for example and relative to understanding specific nutritional supplements that we might suggest.

Q. So the client manual is something you use as a training manual as well; is that safe to say?

A. Well, not directly, but any of our people doing the testing had been through the program themselves. So they've already been through the client manual material. That's part of their working body of knowledge already.

Q. Do they take any special classes in nutrition apart from your discussions of the subject with them?

A. Occasionally they will attend professional seminars normally sponsored by our product suppliers.

Q. And what would be an example of one of those?

A. There might be one on for example female hormone issues. I think one of our suppliers did a seminar of that nature recently. We've had ones on candida yeast overgrowth that staff have attended sponsored by a product supplier, a number of others over the years. I can't recall specifically which topics off the top of my head.

Q. Do you give them any books to read about nutrition?

A. In some cases, yes. Most of the time they're doing that on their own already.

Q. What books do you recommend that they read?

A. I've recommended hundreds of different books. I don't know if I could single out any particular title. We've used one just to give an example, Prescription for Natural Healing by Dr. James Balsh, M.D., is one that we use on a regular basis.

MS. SELIS: Let's break now.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Back on the record, and you're still sworn in. And we'll continue. Just a couple of follow-up questions from some that were asked earlier. We talked about the Omega AcuBase, and you said that you bought four machines in 1998 I believe and that you have two machines in your Idaho facility. Now, when did you buy those?

A. I bought those -- originally they were at the Spokane office when that was open. So they were moved from there to Idaho. We started Spokane in 2,000, summer of 2000. So they would have been bought in I guess like May or June of 2000.

Q. From whom did you buy those?

A. Two different private parties. They were bought used from other doctors and, again, I couldn't tell you the names of the doctors now.

Q. Do you know where they were originally purchased?

A. Oh, originally they would have had to come directly from Digital Health because there's no other source I know of.

MR. BISHIN: But you don't really know where they got them though, do you?


MR. BISHIN: Just tell what you know.


Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do you know whether Digital Health was purchased by BioMeridian at some point?

A. That is my understanding that they were.

Q. Do you know when that occurred?

A. Late 1998 or early 1999.

Q. So it was shortly after you purchased your machines from Digital Health?

A. Very shortly after.

Q. So the machines that you purchased subsequently in 2000, do you know when they were originally purchased by the original owners?

A. I have no idea.

Q. You don't know whether they bought them from BioMeridian or Digital Health?

A. Biomeridian did not sell the Omega AcuBase. They had a new machine that they manufactured. So at the time that Digital Health ceased to be, there were no more sales as far as I know of the Omega AcuBase. It was discontinued.

Q. What was the next model that they sold, the people at BioMeridian?

A. I don't know the model. All of theirs I think begin with MSA something or other. But they've had several different models, and I've never bought any of them so I'm not fluent in that.

Q. You're continuing to use the Omega AcuBase. What do you do for technical support?

A. We don't. The best we can. After several years of having the instrument, I pretty much know how to fix the problems which usually means an uninstall and reinstall.

Q. Have you ever consulted with BioMeridian about problems you've had with the Omega AcuBase?

A. Originally, yes because they continued to offer technical support for a year I think, or maybe it was even two years after they purchased Digital Health.

Q. So when you have a problem now, you're the only person that can troubleshoot it; is that correct?

A. I'm on my own.

Q. So there are no other people who provide technical support for the Omega AcuBase?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. I want to go back to something we were talking about earlier, in particular the red flags when you have a tester who is being trained and who does the first part of the test and you come in and see that there's something wrong presumably that has taken place in the first part of the test. And you explained that -- I'll paraphrase; correct me if I'm wrong -- what you did was you looked at what the person's complaints were, and you compared them to what the readings showed. So that for example if they had symptoms that were compatible with intestinal problems and that didn't show up in the energy imbalance testing, then you might know there was a problem with the original testing; is that a correct paraphrase?

A. That's fairly correct. I would say that it would make me suspicious of the reading and motivate me to want to recheck some readings to ascertain whether the technician's readings were indeed correct or there was a mistake.

Q. Is it your theory that any physical impairment, any physical problem is manifested in a reading that shows an energy imbalance?

A. I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think that would be too broad a statement to make.

Q. So if somebody comes in and says that they have a stomach problem say, and the testing doesn't show that there is a problem that shows an energy imbalance that is traceable to the intestine, what would that be ascribable to if in fact there were no reading, besides a mistake on the part of the tester?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: There are a number of possibilities there. We don't represent, number one, the testing as being diagnostically compatible or similar with conventional medical testing. So that would be the first point. There might not be a correlation. All testing methods have limitations. They have things they'll pick up, things they won't pick up. They will vary from individual to individual in any type of testing. So to get to the heart of the question you're asking, when you have seen thousands of people with a particular profile shall we call it of health problems, you know from experience what the readings we take tend to look like on average. And so that's really my only reference is just by experience in looking at the readings. They would either look reasonable to me based upon my experience of seeing similar people over the years, or they would not. And that would be the red flag.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So would you say that food sensitivities, nutritional deficiencies are the root cause of all the health complaints of your clients?

A. No.

Q. So if somebody comes in, gets tested and there is a showing of some sort of blockage of energy having to do with the intestine, that could be caused by any number of things is what you're saying?

A. Yes.

Q. But the only thing that you do do in terms of what you would advise people is as it relates to nutrition and homeopathic remedies; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. What are the limitations of the testing, referenced limitations?

MR. BISHIN: I'll object to the form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I could give you a totally comprehensive answer on that because I don't know. That would vary from individual to individual and different health issues that they might have that would create limitations, different medications they're on that might somehow skew the test results. There are many possible variables that could affect that.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Let me rephrase the question. What can't EDT do?

A. And that's a simpler question.

MR. BISHIN: I'll object to the form of that question too.

THE WITNESS: Number one, I don't know everything it can't do, but I could give an example I suppose. It cannot tell you numerically what your total cholesterol is for example.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Could it tell you that you had high cholesterol?

A. I'm not convinced that it can based upon my experience.

Q. Could it show anything about your cholesterol?

A. Yes, it can. But trying to translate that into something that correlates with the accepted way of testing cholesterol with a blood serum test, I have not been able to find or find anyone else doing this type of testing that's been able to find anything.

Q. Let me focus on that. What can it tell you about your cholesterol?

A. If you test a homeopathic dilution of cholesterol where you're basically checking for an energetic imbalance that would resonate at that same frequency as cholesterol, with some people you would get a reaction on it. My observation -- and it's only an observation at this point -- is that people with very high cholesterol that have been tested, you know, blood tested and know what their cholesterol number is, will often show a reaction on the energetic filter, the homeopathic filter for cholesterol. But it's not -- you know, it's not all the time, and it seems to be only if they have very high cholesterol, extremely high cholesterol.

Q. Has that been ever correlated in any kind of clinical study?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. What else can't it do?

A. As I said, I don't know everything that it can't do, but let me try to think of other examples. Of course, what I just shared about cholesterol would also be true of the various other things that are measured in a standard blood test. It's not going to tell you what your blood count is. It's not going to tell you the differential breakdown of your white blood cells or any of those kinds of things. It's not going to tell you if you're pregnant or if you have a particular disease of any kind.

Q. So it's not going to tell you if you have cancer say?

A. I don't believe so, no.

Q. High blood pressure?

A. No, not in my experience.

Q. Overgrowth of yeast?

A. It would show an energetic imbalance consistent with candida albicans yeast that could possibly be interpreted as a yeast overgrowth.

Q. So it can diagnose a yeast overgrowth?

A. I wouldn't say diagnose because in terms of medical diagnosis the only accepted methods to my knowledge relate to blood tests and relate to stool tests and these types of cultures. So we're not testing on that chemical level. We're looking at energetic differences, and so we get reactions on homeopathic dilutions of candida yeast for example. And I believe that typically correlates with having a yeast problem.

Q. What's an energy imbalance?

A. An energy imbalance be a departure from -- a deviation rather from a normal, healthy energy flow in the acupuncture meridian you happen to be testing.

Q. What's a normal, healthy energy flow; could you describe what that is.

A. Well, in terms of the EAV testing, the ideal reading, optimal reading would be a 50 on the scale. If you're getting a reaction from that reading, that would be considered an imbalance.

Q. But what is energy flow? I don't understand.

A. Well, join the club. I guess nobody else in conventional medicine understands either.

Q. Do you understand it?

A. Not fully. I don't think anyone does. But in terms of Chinese medicine it's described in terms of chi as an energetic flow along the acupuncture meridians that's electromagnetic in nature that is distinct from the nervous system, distinct from the vascular system.

Q. And the EAV measures that energy flow; is that the theory?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's get back to -- we'll talk about theory a little bit later. Just want to get back to what it cannot do. It can't diagnose diseases such as cancer you said. What about heart problems; can it not diagnose, but can it indicate a heart problem exists?

A. I would say it would be limited to indicating an imbalance on the heart meridian in terms of acupuncture. So again, an energetic imbalance that might or might not correlate with something organically, some organic damage or dysfunction in that are


Q. And what about diabetes?

A. I'm aware of no way of indicating diabetes from EDT. You might -- again, you might find an energetic imbalance on the pancreas meridian. But that would not be affirmative necessarily for tagging it with that specific conventional medical diagnosis which we wouldn't do anyway.

Q. What about autoimmune disease?

A. Same answer relative to that.

Q. "Same answer" meaning what?

A. Same answer meaning, you know, no, you can't diagnose an autoimmune disease with electrodermal testing.

Q. Have there been any clinical studies that would show any correlation between any of these diseases and electrodermal testing and indications of as you say energy imbalances?

MR. BISHIN: Wait a minute. Object to the form of the question. And would you please reread the question back. (Requested record read.)

THE WITNESS: No, relative to the diseases 161 we were just discussing.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: What about other diseases?

A. We did submit a study from the American Journal of Acupuncture relative to lung cancer patients that were tested in a blind setting and correlating that with whether there was an energy imbalance on the lung meridian as measured with EDT.

Q. Who is that study done by?

A. I couldn't tell you without looking at it in the stack there. I don't remember, but it is in the material that we submitted. It's the one that talks about lung cancer patients, and it's out of American Journal of Acupuncture.

Q. You don't know who wrote that?

A. I could if I look it up right now if you'd like me to do that.

Q. You don't do any assessment for lung cancer at your clinics, do you?

A. No.

Q. Just to kind of get back to the whole notion of red flags, somebody comes in, they complain that they've got a problem, a digestive problem say. What would you expect to see on the testing that you do?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: I'm sorry, let me finish that. What would you expect to see from the testing that you do based on the person's complaint?

A. With the energetic testing we would expect to see for example a compatibility with testing different digestive enzymes on them or acidophilus bacteria. That would be one. Also testing for energetic weakness on organs done with the EDT, in many cases we'd expect to see a weakness indicated on one of the digestive organ filters tested.

Q. So if one of your trainees tested this particular client and didn't find any of this, at that point a little red flag would go up for you; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you'd think that perhaps the --

A. I would double-check the readings.

Q. What might be some reasons why those tests might be correct assuming there might be some?

A. Why they would be correct?

Q. Let me back up and ask that more clearly. Is it possible that somebody would come in with those kinds of complaints and yet they wouldn't test showing any of these readings? And if so, what would be the reasons for that?

A. Well, anything's possible when you're dealing with the human body. And oftentimes all types of health practitioners face the situation of just not knowing why with a given situation. But it would be very unusual in my experience to see someone with your example of digestive complaints that something didn't show up on the testing in terms of a suggestion of an enzyme deficiency. Or one I didn't mention before would be just food sensitivity reactions which would be one of the most common reasons. So all I can say is usually something does show up like that in that type of an example as you gave.

Q. What if somebody had advanced arterial sclerosis; would that show up in some way on the EDT testing?

A. Not in such a way that would suggest this person may have advanced cardiovascular disease because again, the focus of what we're doing is not to diagnose or hang a disease name on something. But we're looking for these underlying nutritional and energetic imbalances and are working in a different arena basically. So no would be the answer to that.

Q. So if I understand correctly what you're saying, their underlying disease would manifest itself in a reading that showed an energy imbalance in a particular organ or gland; would that be safe to say?

A. Would you repeat that again? I think I lost you in the process. (Requested record read.) THE WITNESS: No. It might manifest in other ways as well. It might manifest in terms of nutrient deficiency areas. It might manifest in terms of again the foods, food or environmental sensitivities. So there could be several possible things.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: But that would show up in EDT testing, would it not?

A. Those underlying things, what we call common denominators normally are going to show up.

Q. So would there be a correlation between certain readings that you would take in the EDT testing and certain underlying diseases?

A. That would be very hard to discern and would not be the way we orient our practice because our objective and my objective as a nutritionist is not to hang names on conditions. Our clients come in with all kinds of names already hung on their conditions; so that's already been done. Our objective is to look at these underlying things and to seek to balance their body and to stimulate the healing process in the body. So it's just a direction we're not going and really not interested in.

Q. Well, I asked you earlier whether certain readings from EDT testing could correlate with underlying diseases. And you said yes, it could and that there would be certain readings that you would see that would correlate with underlying diseases.

A. Not in the sense that seeing a particular reading and then I say aha, you might have cancer, aha, you might have advanced arterial sclerosis, not in that sense as far as a specific disease condition.

Q. Have there been any studies that showed that certain readings do correlate with certain underlying diseases apart from this one having to do that you mentioned earlier with cancer?

A. That's the only one that I am familiar with to the best of my recollection.

Q. Somehow we got sidetracked. When you are doing the testing, do you tell people that they have certain readings that correlate with certain underlying problems such as weakness in a person's reproductive system?

A. Weakness in the sense of an energetic imbalance in that area, yes.

Q. And do you tell them they might have weakness in their intestines?

A. Yes, again, in terms of an energetic imbalance in that are


Q. How about allergies to certain foods?

A. We don't deal with the term "allergy" and likewise educate our clients in that regard in that allergy is a specific conventional medical term referring to antibody immune system type responses normally measured on the skin or in the blood. The term that is more commonly used in the natural medicine field is "sensitivity" or "intolerance" which refers to a broader definition that is not confined to antibody responses. That would be the term that we would use.

Q. So you do tell them they have food sensitivities then?

A. Yes.

Q. And you tell them which specific food sensitivities they have?

A. Yes.

Q. We talked I guess briefly a little while ago about how there were some limitations to the machine but that it was generally right. How often is the machine wrong?

A. Well, I have no idea, and I don't know how I would determine that. That question assumes that we have some absolute 100 percent right standard to measure it against. Otherwise we couldn't say how often it was wrong.

Q. Well, you said earlier that the machine works. And I asked you what that meant. And you said it works because when we retest people we find that they are testing to show that their systems are somehow in balance or more balanced. And I assume that they're complaining less about the symptoms they came in originally with; right?

A. Well, the question you're really asking then is how often is the program that you are designing based on the electrodermal testing effective. Is that the question you're asking then?

Q. Well, you use EDT to determine where their imbalances are. And based on your readings you come up with a regimen for them that will hopefully make them feel better. And I'm asking you, assuming you do rely on the EDT testing, how often are you wrong?

A. Again, I can't answer how often is it wrong. I could answer how often is the program that is designed not effective in producing change. That's our objective is to evaluate, test them, put them on a program. They come back in and are retested and report on changes. And, you know, we have that. But I wouldn't define that as saying the testing works because the testing is just one part of that. The testing is just a tool to lead to a specific dietary and nutritional supplement program that's actually going to be doing the work. The testing really isn't doing anything in and of itself.

Q. I think that we're kind of not really answering the question that I'm posing. Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying. You base your program on the results, it seems to me based on what you've said so far, of the EDT testing. You believe that it works. You believe it's effective and does what you want it to do. And you make recommendations based on the results of those EDT tests. And you have told me earlier that the program works. I'm wondering how often it doesn't.

A. Okay --

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of that question; asked and answered. He has answered the question.

THE WITNESS: To the extent that we have studied this we find that --

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Who's "we"?

A. My staff and I -- find that clients coming in for their initial testing on average approximately 80 percent of them note improvement in their complaints their initial month on the program. We have statistically studied that. I guess that means 20 percent of the time it doesn't, it is not effective in the initial month though it often is later on and with more time on the program.

Q. You've statistically studied this. Have you kept any records of your statistics?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you actually published anything on your statistics?

A. No.

Q. Have you provided us copies of the studies or the statistics that you have that would indicate an 80 percent success rate? THE WITNESS: Did we?

MR. BISHIN: I don't believe you've asked for that. Of course, we'll now do so.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't believe we have provided that.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Over what period of time have you been doing this statistical evaluation?

A. Well, we did this -- we picked out three three-month periods I believe it was and evaluated the client file -- in three different years and evaluated the client files in terms of initial complaints and at first follow-up visit which ones noted improvements and which ones didn't and came up with percentages based on that. So this was done on periods I believe in 2000, 2002 and 2003, three different three-month periods.

Q. Out of your Bellevue clinic?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the number of clients who were involved in this study?

A. All total for the three years it would have been I would say in the neighborhood of 180 plus or minus 20.

Q. And this was all based on self-reporting; is that correct? Yeah, on the clients' own reporting.

Q. Did they fill out any forms when they came in the second time?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you followed up with any of those clients since then? Yeah, I'm sure with most of them.

Q. How long on average do they stay clients of yours after their initial testing? We didn't --

MR. BISHIN: Let me object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: We didn't measure that in the study.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So you measured your improvement based on a one-month follow-up checkup?

A. Yes.

Q. And nothing beyond that?

A. That's correct.

Q. Of the 20 percent who did not report any improvement, did you see any particular trends?

A. No.

Q. So there wasn't a particular ailment that they came in with that didn't improve?

A. No, I don't believe so.

Q. Have you ever done nutritional advising without the use of EDT in the last three years?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. I couldn't single out a specific time. But there are various times when for example a client might call up with a particular concern and we might make a dietary or nutritional supplement suggestion over the phone, you know. They're not there for testing, or they live in New Jersey or, you know, whatever, and it's not possible for them to be tested where we would make a suggestion.

Q. But if somebody does come into your clinic, you always perform EDT testing on them, do you not?

A. Yes, if they are there for an appointment, yes.

Q. Do you know whether you would be able to achieve the same results that you would achieve with EDT if you did not use EDT with particular clients?

A. I don't know that I would -- you know, what the result would be. I would be pretty handicapped and just doing my best guess as compared to the testing of them.

Q. So in a sense you really don't have a control group to know whether these people would have improved without the use of EDT, do you?

A. No, we have no control group. The people that come to us for help we try to help. We don't put them in one group that's not likely to be helped. So we want to do the best we can.

Q. Doesn't the scientific method, if you're trying to determine something works as either a treatment or medication, involve the use of control groups generally?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: No, that's not necessarily true. This is -- questions repeatedly come up relative to various types of cancer research where it's considered in the conventional medical community to be cruel and unusual punishment essentially to have a control group with certain types of conditions if they have a potentially promising treatment to deprive, you know, someone of it that might benefit.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do you think it would be cruel to not use EDT on someone who came to you for testing and instead just offer them straight nutritional advice?

A. It would be in my opinion certainly shortchanging them in the sense of not giving them our best which is always our objective.

Q. We got kind of sidetracked. We were originally talking before lunch about your training. And I do have some follow-up questions I want to ask about that. When you train your testers, what do you tell them about acupuncture meridians?

A. We show them a chart of where the meridians are, where the testing points are, explain which testing points we use on the acupuncture meridians. That's pretty much the extent of it.

Q. And do you actually show them on your hands or their hands where those meridians are?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you work with them, with a patient and -- I'm sorry, I keep using the word "patient." I mean client. Do you work with them, with a client, to show them where they are on a particular client?

A. Normally by the time they're seeing a client they already know. So all of that is done on between the trainer and the person being trained in the testing. So we're showing them on their own hands or on our hands if we're the trainer.

Q. What points do you tell them to test?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: The points that we primarily do our testing on in terms of the EAV system are the small intestine control measurement point, abbreviated C.M.P.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: What's that stand for?

A. Control measurement point, C.M.P.

Q. Is that the same as the acupuncture point where the meridian goes through?

A. Well, that's one of the points on the acupuncture meridian. In EAV terminology that is sort of a summary point for getting an overall reading on the meridian. The triple warmer, or endocrine meridian, the allergy meridian, the nervous system meridian and the large intestine meridian would be the primary ones we would use.

Q. Do you tell them whether they should or should not talk to clients during the testing?

A. We train them to explain the testing as they're going along and the test results they're noting. And so our appointments are characterized by ongoing conversation back and forth normally.

Q. You mentioned I think 12 testers you've got now and a bunch of other testers that have come and gone over the years. Do you have a minimum educational requirement for your testers?

A. Not as such. But that would probably manifest in other ways. They have to have a certain level of communication skills that often, maybe not always, would correspond with a certain educational level.

Q. So they're not required to have a college degree, are they?

A. No. Most do, but they're not required to.

Q. What percentage do or have over the years?

A. Let's see, I would say -- and again, I can only give a ballpark figure without checking for sure -- probably three fourths of the people we've had do testing have had college degrees.

Q. What percentage of those have had them in medical or scientific fields if any?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't have that information.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Have any of them to your knowledge?

A. Again, our employment application doesn't ask them what their college degree was in; so I don't have that information. I have employees that have worked in medical fields. So probably they do, but I don't know that for a fact.

Q. Who have you employed who has worked in the medical field before?

A. Karen Perrault at the Bellevue office is a registered nurse. Jan Scarcello at the Spokane office is a certified radiology technician. Just those two I believe.

Q. And you don't use a college degree though as a minimum requirement for purposes of hiring, do you, at this point?

A. No. It would be irrelevant.

Q. "Irrelevant" did you say?

A. Yes.

Q. What about a high school diploma?

A. I've never hired anyone that didn't have at least a high school diplom

A. I can't imagine that I would. We don't have it written down someplace in our employment materials that we require that. But it's never come up.

Q. Why would a college education be irrelevant?

A. Because nothing in a college education is going to tell you anything about electrodermal testing primarily.

Q. So everything they learn about electrodermal testing is on the job; is that correct?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: No. They are also in addition to the job going to learn about it from other reading, from the internet, from seminars, you know, a number of possibilities.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do you have any minimum training requirements apart from the training that you've described here for these people that would include research and reading?

A. The only thing I can think of would be in connection with the certified nutritional consultant credential that we discussed earlier, which we require that.

Q. You don't require that they have taken any courses or have any knowledge say in biology?

A. No.

Q. Anatomy?

A. No.

Q. Or nutrition?

A. Courses, no. Knowledge in that area, yes.

Q. Where would that knowledge come from?

A. Usually the best knowledge comes from personal experience.

Q. I want to just zero in a little bit on the Bellevue clinic, the current testers. Tell me their names again if you would.

A. Susan Owen and Karen Perrault.

Q. And have Susan and Karen both been to seminars outside of their on-the-job training with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Where have those seminars been?

A. I don't recall specific names and titles or dates. There have been several over the six years they've been employed though.

Q. Do you send them to those seminars?

A. Yes.

Q. And you pay for them?

A. Yes.

Q. Are they the two-day type seminars you've been referring to, the ones that you've attended?

A. In some cases there have been some evening seminars. Others have been one day, and others are weekend.

Q. Who have they been presented by?

A. Most of them have been presented by product suppliers, companies that we get nutritional supplements from.

Q. So they're more about nutritional supplements, is it safe to say, than EDT?

A. They're more about whatever the specific topic of the seminar was with a secondary emphasis on particular nutritional supplementation. In most cases they would not have referenced or might only have a passing reference to EDT.

Q. So most of their training apart from the training that goes on at your clinic has to do with nutrition; is that correct?

A. With nutrition and nutritional supplementation, yes.

Q. You mentioned earlier that you're spending most of your time in Oregon and some in Idaho. How often do you come to the Washington clinic?

A. Lately I've been here about every two weeks.

Q. How long do you stay when you come?

A. Usually I'm here for two days.

Q. Do you still do any testing?

A. Yes.

Q. And where?

A. Here at the Bellevue office and at the Boise office.

Q. And do you do testing on those two days that you're here?

A. Yes.

Q. In Washington I mean.

A. Yes.

Q. And then you do testing when you're in Idaho as well?

A. Yes.

Q. When you are in the clinics what percentage of your time do you do actual testing?

A. Lately we have had a staff shortage; so it's been most of the time. So of my total time there, probably three fourths of it I'm involved in actually testing people.

Q. What's the balance of your time spent doing?

A. Various administrative issues, accounting, bookkeeping.

Q. Are you the accountant and bookkeeper for your organization?

A. No. But I train everybody.

MS. SELIS: Let's take a five-minute break and come back.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Back on the record, still under oath. We were talking about your testers, but before we get back into that, of course when we take a break we think of something we want to follow up on. And that has to do with the 80 percent statistics you've given us about people who report that they feel better. Isn't it true that you give a people diet that's healthier, that cuts out sugars, cuts out unhealthy stuff as your diets do, that most them are going to feel healthier, aren't they?

A. Hopefully that would be one of the objectives of the dietary change.

Q. Why would the EDT be causative, assuming you maintain that it is, in the statistic that 80 percent feel better after a month of being on your program?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: The program consists of dietary change and the nutritional supplemental. The nutritional supplementation and the sensitive foods are both determined, you know, by the EDT. So I just want to clarify that the EDT in and of itself is not doing anything other than leading you to choices within designing the program. So the program is what's accomplishing whatever results you're getting. All I can say in answer to that is just a general diet, general healthy eating diet, a significant percentage of our clients have already done or are already doing at the time they come in, and that wasn't enough. So it's a matter of specificity. To be able with the testing to hone in on more specific things and target the diet and nutritional supplementation to that we have found to be much more effective than just a plain diet.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: What percentage of your clients when they come in are eating the kind of healthy diet you recommend they eat after they've visited with you?

A. Oh, probably -- well, I don't know in that we've never done a statistic or study on that. Ballpark figure, maybe a fourth of them are eating pretty well.

Q. How do you know that if you've never done any studies on that?

A. Because with every client I look at their client information form and they tell us what they're eating from memory.

Q. When they describe what they're eating do they do so with specificity and in detail generally?

A. It's described fairly generally, typical meals.

Q. So typical meals?

A. Yeah.

Q. Do they describe their servings of particular food groups they have a day?

A. No.

Q. Do they talk about the number of glasses of water they drink a day?

A. Yes.

Q. Do they talk about the kinds of supplements they're currently taking?

A. Yes.

Q. Do they talk about the fiber in their diet?

A. Not specifically.

Q. Do they talk about foods they already may be avoiding?

A. In some cases, yes.

Q. What percentage of the cases do they talk about that?

A. I couldn't give you a percentage on it. It would be somewhat rare.

Q. Let's get back to the training. That was a bit of a digression there. We talked about the educational background of your testers. Do you also look at the employment background of your testers?

A. Yes.

Q. And are their minimum requirements for their employment background? I need you to clarify that. Do you mean in terms of what kinds of work they've done before?

Q. Any qualifications, either types or duration, types of employers, any qualifications that you impose on their employment background. No. We look at every application individually.

Q. So are there any minimum qualifications for those people that you hire? We are looking for some background in terms of nutrition or natural medicine whether that is specific training or just family personal experience. That would be considered a minimum background. We are looking for people that have good people skills and ability to relate well. We are looking for people that have reasonably good personal appearance. So things we're looking for are not something that lends itself to listing a particular criteria; they're more overall impression types of criteri


Q. Do you consider religious philosophy as a hiring criteria? We consider experience in Christian ministry to be something that is preferred and stated on our employment application, yes.

Q. So are the people who currently work for you, would they define themselves as Christians?

A. Yes.

Q. So would that be a minimum qualification?

A. It would be a minimum qualification that they have some type of experience in Christian ministry.

Q. And I'm equating that with being a Christian. Is that part of experience?

A. Hopefully that would be true, yes.

Q. Why do you do that?

A. Our primary outreach is to the Christian community via Christian radio with my seminars and radio programs so most our clients are Christians.

Q. Why do you target your services to the Christian community?

A. Because that's my background is full time Christian ministry. I came into this field specifically concerned with reaching the Christian community with the truths I was learning and have continued to have my own personal burden has been in that are

A. Plus our advertising on Christian radio has been the most successful for the dollars spent.

Q. Is there any kind of religious bent to your program?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Not anything specific. We mention some spiritual principals in the client manual but there's really nothing that is particularly involved in that way, no.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do you think that Christians would be more amenable to following your program than non-Christians?

A. That's hard to say. We have clients that are Christians and that are non-Christians, and we've certainly had many non-Christians that have done very well on our program and that are very happy with our services. So I don't think I could make a statement like that in the affirmative.

Q. Do you notice a difference between how well Christians do that are on your program versus those who are not Christians?

A. I have not really seen that kind of a correlation.

Q. I want to shift gears somewhat here and try to get to the practice and the theory behind EDT a little bit more. And I'm going to talk about this, ask you questions about how it works, how you do it, just to get a real kind of hands-on feel for how it's done. We've talked generally in bits and pieces about how you do it. Here's where I kind of want to pull it together so we get the full picture all at once. And we'll talk about other things as time permits today or at a later time. But for now I want to spend some time on this. I'd like you to explain to me as if I were learning from you as if you were training me how to do electrodermal testing. I come to you and say, "Teach me; I want to be a tester. How do I do this?"

A. How many months do you have?

Q. Well, say I'm a really quick study and you don't have to hit every single fine point at this point. But, you know, tell me what you can; teach me how you do it.

MR. BISHIN: His question was how many months do you have.

MS. SELIS: I get to ask the questions.

MR. BISHIN: The reason he's asking the question is because the question can be answered in many ways depending on how much time you're giving him to answer.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: I'm giving you a couple of hours.

A. Wow.

Q. I'll tell you some of the things I want you to answer. And I don't want to fence you in. How do you position the client? How do you physically prepare them? How do you place the testing instrument on the client? What do you do at each step of the testing process? What are the readings that you take on the EDT device during the process? How are the readings made? What's the significance of the readings? How do I interpret them? How are these readings used in making recommendations to the client? How are they recorded? How are they retained if they're retained? What do I see on the screen as I'm testing a client? How is it applied to my making my readings? How much time do I spend with the client, what I say generally; that can come later. I think that's kind of, you know, the how to's. And I recognize you can take hours and hours to explain. But, you know, given where we are, what the context is, you know. If you get too detailed, I'll say wait a minute or I'll say I don't understand and stop you.

A. Fine.

Q. Have a shot at it.

MR. BISHIN: Would it make sense for him to follow the order of your interrogatory on this, interrogatory number 1? MS. SELIS: Sure, that's fine.

THE WITNESS: I did answer this in the interrogatory.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: But it's helpful to hear it orally because I think you say things that are more explanatory. I can interpose a question if I don't understand a phrase. While I understand you may have answered a lot of these questions in the interrogatories, it's helpful for me to be able to understand it from hearing it in addition to reading some of it.

A. Okay, first of all, the position is sitting across the desk, or we have a special --

Q. Let me start out by we're going to do this step by step. Cheryl walks in. Cheryl's the client. I'm the tester. You're the trainer. And Cheryl walks in and she says, "I've been having stomachaches every time I eat," okay. What do you do with her? Where do I sit? What does she do? Let's try it from a hypothetical perspective.

A. First of all, it wouldn't matter what the specific complaints were. We'd be doing the same general testing to start out with. We would want to know that information for background, but that wouldn't particularly dictate how the testing was done other than which specific nutritional supplements we might check at the end. When she's come in, you're sitting across the desk from her. The instrument is on your right side here in between the two of you. And the actual testing -- or before the actual testing first of all a Piezo stimulator device is used to stimulate each of the testing points on the fingers that will be tested.

Q. What's a Piezo stimulator, and what's it suppose to stimulate?

A. A Piezo device uses a quartz crystal, friction against a quartz crystal to create an electrical spark, a very low current type of thing kind of like a static electricity type of shock which is normally either not felt by the client or is felt as just a slight tingle sensation. What it does is it stimulates the point that's being tested so that it's easier to get the readings once we actually put the probe on the point to test the readings. So it kind of wakes up the point I guess in a way you could say. The first thing that would happen would be an initial reading would be taken on the endocrine point, triple warmer point, on the third finger. That reading would typically be somewhere in the 60s on the scale.

Q. You're presuming I know something here. When you say that would be 60s on the scale, would that be reflected on the computer?

A. That would show on the testing instrument itself and then on the graphic display on the computer screen both as a number and this bar graph.

Q. I see. You said that was on a particular point, and does that point correlate with something else like a part of the client's body?

A. The endocrine point in acupuncture and in EAV specifically would include measurement points for the adrenals, gonadal areas, thyroid, thymus, insulin function of the pancreas, basically those. Also let's see, what am I leaving out. Pituitary and pineal glands also.

Q. So anything that secretes a hormone?

A. Basically, yes, is measured on that point.

Q. What do the readings from that point indicate, either a 60, a 50, a 40; what do they show?

A. Okay, I have to differentiate here between the method of testing we use and the original EAV testing method which we do not currently use. In terms of our method, we're not attaching any significance to just that plain reading because we're getting our results from other means that come later. In the EAV system any of the points that are tested are tested in terms of how high is the reading with increasing levels above the 50 perfect reading corresponding with increasing inflammation, infection or allergic reactivity, something like that in that area of the body. This would be Dr. Voll's original method, original teaching on this. And then a dropping reading where the point would go up, the reading would go up to a certain level like say to 65, and then it starts sliding back down and goes down to a lower level and stops would indicate, and again according to Dr. Voll's system, a more likely to be chronically disturbed area of the body. So that's the only way you would attach an interpretation to that initial reading would be if you're doing a testing method we're not doing but is another EDT testing method.

Q. So what is the significance of that reading?

A. The significance of that reading for us, there is no significance to that reading yet. So all we want is to get an initial reading. We're going to follow that by putting four homeopathic filters into the circuit that are epiphysis, spelled e-p-i-p-h-y-s-i-s, D26 homeopathic dilution which is the homeopathic dilution of pineal glandular, bovine pineal glandular. In Dr. Schimmel's system, the Vega testing system that particular dilution of that particular substance has an energetic correcting effect on the body such that the reading will come down to the perfect 50 reading. So that's used as a second step on an energetic level to balance the body in kind of an artificial temporary way. Then the actual -- well, one more step before the actual testing is a known toxin. Normally we use a sample of Draino is put into the circuit which being a poison should throw off the reading if the subject is responding normally.

Q. When you say you put it into the circuit, I want to make sure I'm understanding objectively what is going on at this point. You've put the probe up to a particular point on the client?

A. Right.

Q. And you have taken epiphysis, and you have put it into the circuit. What does that mean when you say you've put it into the circuit?

A. Two ways of doing that. The original way just so you understand it the more easy way, is to take a test vial of that particular homeopathic dilution. Actually there are four of them used that are used identical. Normally with the original instruments it would be put into an aluminum block with holes in it called the honeycomb that is connected in series between the negative and positive probe. With computerization in the last 10 to 12 years the EDT instruments generally have a function for taking a reading on a particular substance like that and then storing that reading as a unique Digital Health code in the computer hard drive so that you can just bring it up on the screen and get the same test reading without having the actual test vial. So what I mean by putting it in the circuit is we're going to select it off of the screen so that it is connected in circuit with the subject's body.

Q. It's virtually connected is what you're saying?

A. That would be one way of putting it.

Q. So you've virtually connected the circuit to include a Digital Health reading that approximates or is what the reading would be were the substance epiphysis to be introduced physically into that circuit; is that correct?

A. Well said.

Q. So that introduction of the substance has been shown to bring the reading to a neutral level to 50; is that correct?

A. A better term would be a balanced level.

Q. Is that regardless of what the client's original reading was?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know that the introduction of that virtual homeopathic piece of data into the system causes the computer to show a reading of 50?

A. That's the only variable that's been changed at that point.

Q. How do you know that it's not just a resetting of the computer to 50 when you do a particular function on it?

A. Because when you take it back out the reading goes up to what it was before.

Q. But isn't the introduction of that particular digital piece of information essentially just a way of reducing the reading down to 50 regardless of what it actually does?

A. You're not testing the computer. You've got the client holding the negative and positive probes. So I mean the reading's being taken on the client, not on the computer. I don't know, we may be getting beyond my mental ability here to comprehend what the question is you're asking exactly, but I'm trying.

Q. Let me put it a slightly different way. You can normalize a computer to bring it down to a particular reading based on how you program a computer. So you're saying the introduction of a digital code that reflects epiphysis is what is bringing it down to 50. I'm asking you why couldn't it just be that when you do a particular function of the computer it couldn't be programmed to get it down to 50 regardless of what you did to it.

A. One of the reasons why that couldn't be is because we can take the four homeopathic vials of epiphysis and put it manually into the system and get the same result so that the computer memory digital memory is not involved in the process.

Q. Does it always read 50 once you program it to reflect the digital code for epiphysis?

A. It does if you've done the testing properly and if you've done the point stressing properly as the initial step. If it doesn't, you don't have a -- you don't have a control. You don't have a known at that point to start from, and you have to fix that in order to have accurate testing.

Q. Okay. So we've got it to read 50. We've introduced the epiphysis. The next step is what?

A. The known toxin.

Q. So we put in that. And that is also programmed into the computer as well?

A. Right. Or you could check it manually. You get the same result either way. And the reading is going to, you know, go high, go up into the 60s again like the original reading is again, if the subject is responding normally. And if they're not, you have to figure out why and fix that before you can proceed with testing.

Q. So why might they not be responding normally?

A. There are a number of reasons. For example, let's say the subject has eczema on their fingers, so a lot of inflammation there, and the point you're touching is inflamed so it's going to give a high reading no matter what you put in the circuit. Solution, try to find a different finger that's not inflamed. They might have an abnormal reading because they only had two hours of sleep the night before. They might have an abnormal reading because they are on maybe a certain kind of medication that is creating a disturbance in the body. So there are a number of possibilities. The key thing is that you've got to have those two knowns. If you can't get that 50 reading with the amplifier filters and the high reading with the known toxin, then the rest of the testing is not going to be legitimate.

Q. If somebody did have eczema on their hands, how would that be reflected in the reading?

A. The reading would tend to go high as I said all the time. In other words, you'd get 60s, 70s, maybe even 80s on the scale where you were supposed to be getting a 50 reading.

Q. So what's the next step then after the test for the toxin?

A. Then when you've done the preliminaries, then you actually start testing. The first area of testing is called biological score index. It is basically a toxicity measurement on a scale that's used as a monitoring tool to assess the relative toxicity with the individual for comparison purposes later.

Q. What's that called again, I'm sorry?

A. Biological score index developed by Roy Martina, M.D., and also by Dr. Schimmel.

Q. How do you test for that again?

A. Again, specific filters of different homeopathic dilutions determined experimentally by Dr. Schimmel and later by Dr. Martina were developed to create a, you know, relative scale of toxicity divided into three different parts. First part is overall toxicity on a zero to 10 scale. Second part is elimination blockage, how well a body is draining and eliminating toxins on a 12 to 15 scale. And the third part is regeneration blockage, where the body is on a regeneration-degeneration scale with 15 being the worst, 1 being the best. And different substances, homeopathic dilutions of different substances were developed over the years for creating a scale. And I'm not cognizant of exactly how and what and why and, you know, all of that. It's sold as a particular test kit.

Q. Who sells it?

A. Originally it was called the Biological Score Test Kit. It was sold by the Vega Company in West Germany. The American company that Dr. Martina developed the biological score index test for is called Apex, A-p-e-x, Energetics, and they're located in the Los Angeles area.

Q. And is that particular program specifically to be used in combination with EDT?

A. It can be, or it can be used with applied kinesiology, either way.

Q. We haven't gotten to this point yet, but I'm assuming that you use the probe and the computer to do this testing, do you not?

A. Yes. So the -- I guess we skipped that step. The client after the points have been stressed with the piezo stimulator is then holding the negative probe which is a brass rod in one hand, and then the technician is testing the points on the opposite hand with the positive probe.

Q. And how do you combine that aspect, the touching of the probe and the client's holding the brass rod with the biological score index test; how is that done?

A. Okay, we've taken as we talked about before the initial readings. Initial reading had the amplifier filters down to 50, check the known toxin, back up in the 60s, take out the toxin filter and you're ready to start. And then selecting the different filters on the computer in descending order from the highest, worst, down to the best, you will get the same 50 reading that you started with, your baseline reading, on all of those until you hit the one that would represent their overall toxicity level. That one will go up to a higher level, in other words, to the same level that the known toxin did back in the preliminary test.

Q. I'm going to stop you there because I don't understand that. And you've got to take it down to basics for me here. So you really lost me on that, I'm sorry. I just didn't follow.

MR. BISHIN: Would you like to read back the answer, and then you can ask the follow-up question.

MS. SELIS: Yeah, I would appreciate that. Why don't you read the answer. I know what the question was. (Requested record read.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: I still don't understand it, but let me see if I can ask a springboard question to maybe understanding it better. You said that you go through the toxins in descending order. Are the toxins displayed on the computer; is that what you mean when you say you go through them in descending order?

A. What you see on the computer screen on overall toxicity is it will say tox 10, tox 9, tox 8, tox 7 and so on up to tox zero. So it's just a textual listing of which filter you're on.

Q. What do you mean by filter?

A. Filters are what all of these things that we put into the computer to narrow down to a particular item that we're wanting to test, you know, would be called. The homeopathic vial, the liquid homeopathic dilution of the epiphysis or whatever, when we take that and put it into the computer, we then call it a filter because there's not a vial in the computer but the energetic recording of that in the computer. So all the filter is doing is just narrowing out other wavelengths and leaving, you know, that one thing that you're testing.

Q. Now, let me just back up. You've got a biological score index that you're testing for right now -- right -- that's where we are in all this?

A. Yes.

Q. And you've got a whole series of filters that are supplied to you as part of this package test that was developed by Martina; right?

A. Right.

Q. And there are different filters that are part of that particular test; is that right? Yes.

Q. Those filters represent various toxins; is that correct? The filters are homeopathic dilutions of different toxins. They represent different levels of toxicity.

Q. So if we want to bring this down to something that's maybe understandable by a layperson, if you're putting Draino in the circuit at the get go to see what the initial reading will be, this would be like putting cyanide in and then maybe putting Nightshade in and then maybe putting rat poison in.

A. Whatever, any poison would accomplish the same purpose.

Q. So you've got a series of toxins also known as poisons in filter format, and that filter format is really a digital memory of what the actual substance would project.

A. Correct.

Q. I'm with you so far. What do you read when you read through that index, that list of poison, and what is the significance of those readings?

A. Okay, there is no significance to the particular toxin that is used for the filter on this particular test. It's somewhat unique. All we get out of this test is three numbers, what you are on a zero to 10 scale on overall toxicity and what you are on a 1 to 15 scale on the other two measurements that are done. So all we want to know to use this as a monitoring tool is know relatively on a scale what somebody is. What the items are is irrelevant. And I couldn't tell you without looking it up what the items are because they're not used. To simplify this whole thing the simplest way I can explain this to you is that with the Vega testing of EDT there are only two readings. It's either a yes or a no. It's a no if the reading when you add that filter in stays at the baseline reading. It's a yes if it changes from the baseline reading, in this case a high reading as we were talking about.

Q. It seems like what you're saying to me is that Martina has put together this package and that you don't really know why it is that this package works, why looking at these various poisons would have any correlation with your toxicity but you know that it does in fact work. Is that safe to say?

A. That would be safe to say. I mean there is a logic to it when you examine and look at what the items are. I don't mean to overstate it in the other direction or understate it in that direction. In the first part of it, the overall toxicity, all of the 11 items are different homeopathic dilutions of different venoms. So there are different snake venoms or spider venoms or what have you. And I don't remember which are which without looking it up on the list. But it does make sense when you look at them that, you know, reacting on, you know, this particular venom would probably correlate with a higher level of toxicity in the body than reacting on --

Q. Why would it? I don't understand why it makes sense.

A. Because there's a difference in the venom from -- trying to think of some of the ones that are actually used in it. Say you took, I don't know, like a coral snake venom compared to a rattle snake venom. The coral snake venom is probably about 100 times more toxic than rattle snake venom is. So there are varieties of toxicity associated with different venoms whether from reptiles or what have you. That's the logic and how they presumably came up with the system.

Q. Why would that correlate with a finding that you have an overall toxicity in your system or why you would have a blockage of the elimination of that toxicity or why you would have a regeneration blockage? I'm not following that.

A. Those are different filters that are used on those other two. We haven't gotten to those yet. On overall toxicity the answer would be I don't know. I didn't design the system. I've used it for years. It seems to correlate well with the relative degree of health or lack of it that people are experiencing. And, you know, you'd have to ask Martina and Schimmel that because I don't know the why.

Q. So is the client actually relating to the toxin in the filter when you get the reading?

A. What do you mean by "relating to"?

Q. I'm sorry, is the client actually reacting with the reading that he or she is showing to the filter that is in the computer?

A. Yes. They are energetically reacting to it, yes.

Q. What do you mean when you say toxicity. We sort of assumed that term away a little bit. You said this particular test, the Martino test, the first step of it at least shows the overall toxicity of the client. What do you mean when you say overall toxicity?

A. Toxicity would be -- or toxin would be synonomous with poison. We mean by that the cumulative toxic burden in the body I think would be probably the best way to define that.

Q. I think you just used the same term to define the term toxicity. You said a toxin burden --

A. Poison then.

Q. Define poison then in the body.

A. I think it's common knowledge what poisons are.

Q. I don't know what it means.

A. You don't know what a poison is?

Q. Not as you're using that term. Poison is something like Draino. Do I have Draino in my body?

A. There are two kinds of toxins. You have external toxins in various categories that can be drugs, that can be heavy metals, that can be chemicals, that can be insecticides, a whole range of different categories of toxins that way. You have endotoxins which would refer to more of a self-produced toxicity created in the digestive tract, internally created by improper digestive chemistry.

Q. Let me stop you there, endotoxins. You've used the same term, "toxin." And I want to know does that mean bacteri

A. Does that mean a cancerous agent? Does that mean something that kills me? You know, I'm finding that term -- it's used all over the place, and I don't know what it means, and I really need to understand that.

A. I think I already answered that. I told you chemicals. I told you insecticides. I told you heavy metals, prescription drugs. Those would all be examples of categories of poisons or toxins.

Q. Those are external toxins.

A. Those would be external, correct.

Q. I'm with you there.

A. Okay.

Q. It's the internal toxins because what you're measuring here is the overall toxicity of a person internally it seems; right? Is that safe to say?

A. Let me clarify your misunderstanding there. When I say external or internal I'm talking about the source of it. Obviously it's all internal. But where did it come from? How did it originate? Was it brought into the body as in those categories I just enumerated, or was it something that was created inside the body from just the body's own improper biochemical reactions in the digestive tract or elsewhere. So that's our two main categories.

Q. So you're talking about the etiology of the particular toxicity, where it can come from.

A. Yes.

Q. But what is an internal toxicity? When you measure Cheryl's toxicity, Cheryl being our client here -- when you measure Cheryl's toxicity, are you measuring the amount of pesticide in her system? Are you measuring the amount of bacteria? Are you measuring the amount of Draino? I mean that's where I break down.

A. On this test we're not measuring a specific toxin, number one.

Q. But you said it was the toxicity of the individual; that was the term that you used.

A. We are measuring a relative level I said on a zero to 10 scale.

Q. Of toxicity though; right?

A. Of toxicity. And all we're saying is Cheryl is a 5; Cheryl is a 2; Cheryl is a 10.

Q. But that's meaningless. What does that mean?

A. It's totally meaningful if you understand the test. That's why I asked you how many months you had to explain this. I spent months explaining this to people I train.

Q. Explain to me then because I'm a pretty quick study. I need to know what toxicity is, and right now I don't. And I think, you know, you've said there are external causes of toxicity, pesticides -- you've named some things that are bad. But when you're measuring somebody's toxicity I don't know what that means, the amount of bad stuff they have in them?

A. You're switching subjects on me. You're going between toxicity in general in the body and what does that mean and what are those and what does that connotate and a specific test for overall toxicity which is just a relative number.

Q. But let me just start with a basic assumption. When you test someone for overall toxicity or overall anything, overall happiness, overall, you know, depression, overall anything, you have to know what that anything is; right? You have to be able to quantify it. I have to know what happiness is before I can quantify it; right? So I don't know what toxicity is. What are you quantifying? That's my question.

MR. BISHIN: I object to the form of the question and the testimony and theory and all of that.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: You can answer.

A. Again, all I can say is that -- let me skip ahead just a little and then come back because I might be able to answer your question better that way. We check for specific toxins later on by checking a dilution of that particular toxin. The BSI test, its only purpose is to get a relative idea of where the body is at relative to toxicity, to have a monitoring tool so that you can say, okay, your initial visit you were at a 7. And you go on a program. You come back a month later, and it's now gone down to a 5. That's our only interest in that. We test the specifics of what it is on other another test.

Q. I'm still not sure what toxicity is then. Why call it toxicity if it doesn't have any qualities? Why not call is "gimimilhoffin," you know, a word that doesn't have any meaning at all. If Cheryl is toxic, what does that mean on a scale of 1 to 10? What does she have that makes her toxic? What is the quality of being toxic?

A. I've already answered your question, Paul

A. I said we test specific toxins later on. This is a preliminary test. B.S.I. is a preliminary test to get an idea of what that might be. We test specific things later on to find out what that might be. So this is just kind of an overall indicator. I wish I could give you a parallel of that type of thing. Sometimes this -- I don't know, this type of thing might even be done in conventional medicine relative to, for example, an HDL cholesterol ratio or something like that. Well, what is that. Well, it's just a number, and you have this number --

Q. It's high density lipoproteins. It's an actual physical manifestation of a condition. That is different from --

A. No, the ratio is not. The ratio is just a number, and that's all it is.

Q. But it's one thing as compared to another. There are two real things in that ratio.

A. Yeah.

Q. Here we have toxicity which is nothing at all that I can figure out other than simply a term that has no meaning. Do you use -- let me see if we can follow up. Do you use that particular scale, the 1 to 5 thing or 1 to 10 later on for some particular reason? How is that meaningful in this whole testing process?

A. That is meaningful primarily in terms of retesting the client on a follow-up visit to determine if they're progressing on a program. If they're progressing, the numbers go down. If they're not progressing, the numbers stay the same.

Q. Isn't that sort of circular though? If you have a measure of something and you can't quantify what that something is, if you measure it later on, how do you know if that something has improved or gotten worse? I don't understand.

A. It is quantified because you're testing the same thing.

Q. But what is it you're testing?

A. I give up. I've tried 12 ways from Tuesday to explain this to you.

Q. Well, I think this is very important because a lot of what EDT is about is phrased in terms of toxicity and a lot of the information the client gets is about toxicity and a lot of the literature you provide is about toxicity and toxins.

A. All of our clients understand this when we explain it to them with about 20 seconds' worth of words, and you haven't been able to understand it in a half hour here. So I don't know what your problem is.

Q. Well, I'm not a client. I'm an attorney who's trying to get to the root of it to really understand it so I can explain it. It's important for me to understand it because, if I understand it, then I'm in a better position to understand what you do and why that's either a good thing or a bad thing. And that's important for both of us.

A. I'm sorry, I can't think of a good parallel to describe this. But again, all I can say is it's an empirical method developed by Schimmel originally and Martina later just to give a relative idea of toxicity. Toxicity refers to the cumulative level of poisons of all types in the body. In other words, it's not specific to a particular type of toxin or individual toxin, but it's looking at the body in a cumulative way as I understand it, as I have been trained in this. And beyond that I'm -- I don't know more about it than that.

Q. Well, I think you've kind of explained a little bit more and maybe given me a jumping off point. And I want to come back to external toxins which I do understand, pollution, drugs --

A. Sure.

Q. -- alcohol, things like that. And recognize that there may well be, you know, a buildup of foreign substances in the body that might be detrimental to your health. What I don't understand -- this is where I get stuck -- is on what else besides those external toxins that I know about might be toxic. That's what I'm getting stuck on. Is it cancer? Is it bacteria? Is it everything that could be potentially bad for you?

A. It could be any foreign substance. You used one of the best words by saying foreign substance. That's perhaps one of the best ways of defining that. But to give you two examples, two endotoxins in the digestive tract that are common, indole and skatol, which are produced in the intestinal tract if you have a bad chemistry there, a bad bacteria imbalance or what have you. There are many possible internally produced toxins, but those are two specific ones.

Q. So they could be chemically produced within your own system. When you use the word toxin -- I think you're using the word toxin as anything that's bad for you. It doesn't necessarily have to be a poison. It doesn't have to be a death sentence attached to it. It could just be anything bad; is that correct?

A. I think I would stick to the anything foreign to the body would be a more accurate way of saying it.

Q. Well, you used the examples of indol and skatol, and those are manufactured by the body; correct? So they're not foreign to the body; they're part of the body's process.

A. Okay, yeah, that does break down at that point. But they are not normal to a healthy system. They are indicative of an unhealthy system.

MR. BISHIN: Excuse me for a moment. Doesn't the body break down all kinds of things and excretes them because they're toxin?

MS. SELIS: Bill, you can't testify, sorry. I don't want you to be a witness in this case.

MR. BISHIN: I want to get past this.

MS. SELIS: You might want to get past it, but I think it's really important to know. It's a term that's used all over the place.

MR. BISHIN: The term is used more broadly than he's using it or you're using it.

MS. SELIS: That's what I'm trying to understand exactly how he's using it.

MR. BISHIN: But he's guessing at what other people are saying when they tell him to do this with it.

MS. SELIS: He's operating a business based on his understanding of what the term means, and I want to know what his understanding of it is.

Q. So it could be something that's produced by the body. It's something that -- maybe if we can narrow it down some more, something that a healthy individual wouldn't have in his or her body.

A. Correct.

Q. So the biological score index tests the toxicity of an individual based on a scale -- right -- that's the first test. Now we're going to move on.

MR. BISHIN: I've got to take a break.

MS. SELIS: Sure.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Okay, now one thing I just want to move back to real quick is you said you had a 20-second explanation that you give your clients and they get it on the subject of what toxicity means. So give me that 20 seconds here.

A. The first thing we're going to check is biological score. This is divided into three parts. The first part is overall toxicity on a zero to 10 scale. Each of these -- I'm testing now. Each of these are going to give us the same 50 baseline reading until we reach the one that represents your overall toxicity number. It will go up to a higher reading. We'd finish that, then go same thing with the other two sections, elimination blockage and regeneration blockage.

Q. Let's move to elimination blockage; what is elimination blockage?

A. My understanding of that from Dr. Martina is that that is the degree to which the overall elimination processes of the body of all types were being hindered. It is not just referring to the bowel for example but to any of the elimination organs, the bowel, the kidney, the liver, the skin, the lymphatic system and so on and a composite reading on all of those areas.

Q. And so are we back then to the notion of toxicity here? In other words, when we're talking about elimination blockage, I'm assuming that it is the elimination of toxins that we're referring to; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So this is a test to see how blocked, if at all, you are in eliminating toxins from your body?

A. Yes.

Q. And describe the methodology behind that in the same way that you described how the overall toxicity test worked.

A. It again has different substances that comprise the different filters. I don't recall offhand what they are without, you know, looking it up on a test kit. Again, as I understand it empirically determined by Dr. Martina and building off of the original system designed by Dr. Schimmel, and I don't know anything about them beyond that other than we just test and find out which one reacts.

Q. And it's the same procedure generally that's used with the overall toxicity scale, but these particular readings tell you instead of overall toxicity what level of elimination blockage you have?

A. Correct.

Q. So to put it in layperson's terms, you're testing how well the elimination systems of the body get rid of toxins through those various systems?

A. Not quite. I think it would be more accurate to say, again back to the concept of blockage, is the idea that the degree of hindrance there is to the body's normal elimination process of those toxins. So it's talking more about efficiency of getting rid of toxins.

Q. We're back to toxicity.

A. Can I give you an example?

Q. Yeah.

A. If you have a cold, stuffed up, lymphatic system is plugged, not draining, that's an example of blockage to one of the elimination systems. So that's one example of the kind of thing that we're thinking of with that test.

Q. So the theory is based on the software which you're taking as a given based on what you've learned from Martina and Schimmel will demonstrate that you have a higher level of elimination blockage or a lower one?

A. Yes.

Q. And does this then test for a variety of systems in one test? So let me make that a little clearer. You've given examples of the bowel, the lymphatic system, the skin, the pancreas. I don't know if you mentioned the bladder. This test determines whether all of those different systems or any of those systems is blocked or the relative level of blockage?

A. Yes. But it is not specific to any one system. So it would be I guess we'd call it a composite type of a reading.

Q. When you say blocked -- we're going to make sure we are working on terminology that we understand -- what do you mean "blocked"?

A. Hindered from eliminating in the normal fashion.

Q. So some of those would be obvious. So for example if one has a cold, then the lymphatic system isn't draining or if one is constipated, the bowels aren't working.

A. Yes.

Q. Are there not relative levels of -- strike that question. What's the scale again for determining overall blockage versus --

A. 1 to 15.

Q. And are we talking here about physical blockage? So for example, the lymphatic system, when the nasal passages are inflamed and the mucous membranes are inflamed and you've got a lot of mucous running through the system there's a blockage of I guess air, are you talking about physical blockage of substances? Are you talking about blockage of energy? What kind of blockage are you referring to?

A. Well, the test is energetic in nature. My experience would be that it does seem to correlate with known physical blockages such as some of the examples you just gave. But obviously all of the tests are an energetic test by nature.

Q. Well, now, I don't think anything's obvious here. I want to assume that that's not the case. So when the term blockage is used, it means something to me and may mean something to you. But I want to make sure that we understand what we mean. So are we talking about energy blockage of a specific organ or system, or are we talking about physical blockage of feces or mucous, or are we using the term metaphorically? How are we using this term?

A. I would say we're referring to both an energetic blockage and potentially an actual physical blockage. The view of energetic medicine would be that all of the physical conditions have an underlying energetic imbalance correlated with them. So we tend -- those of us in this field tend to look at the body and, you know, with that presupposition. So I think the answer to your question would be both.

Q. So both a physical blockage and a sort of a more metaphorical energy blockage?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any independent knowledge other than what you've believed from Schimmel and Martina that this system can actually measure elimination blockage as you've defined it?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question, the "system."

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm going blank on the question here. (Requested record read.)

THE WITNESS: The only other knowledge I would have would be based on personal observation over the years with known situations and how the biological score numbers correlated with those. Outside my own observations, no.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: When you say how the biological score index correlated with those, could you explain what you mean.

A. I mean that as an example we have very frequently noted high elimination blockage scores with people that had a cold or sinus condition at the time they were tested. So that would be one example of an elimination blockage.

Q. So it might be able to test for when you have a cold; is that correct?

A. Well, you couldn't go the other direction with it because you don't -- there are other kinds of elimination blockages. So the fact that you had a 13 on a 15-point scale for example would not indicate that you had a cold. It could indicate -- it could be some other kind of elimination blockage besides in the lymphatic area that was evidenced by that.

Q. I think I didn't ask that question the right way, or maybe you didn't understand what I meant. You've said that your correlation would be that people who have a high reading on the elimination blockage scale in your observation, that has correlated with people who have a cold; right?

A. In many instances, yes.

Q. And my question is whether that particular test in your opinion might be accurate to determine whether someone has a cold and nothing more.

A. Well, I did understand your question correctly, and I think I answered it correctly. You can't go the other direction.

Q. When you say, "go the other direction," what do you mean?

A. Well, your reasoning from -- we started out an example reasoning from high elimination blockage score -- excuse me, back up. We started reasoning from you have a cold or sinus infection, frequent correlation with a high elimination blockage score. You turned it around and said, if you have a high elimination blockage score, then does that mean you have a cold. And I said no.

Q. Oh, no, I'm sorry, I didn't ask that question. My question was that, if you see a high correlation between the two, a high score and a high cold, it seems to me that the only thing that you can conclude at that point, you know, if you want to conclude it and if you're assuming that your observations are correct and that you've got scientific data to prove it, is that this test might be able to indicate that a person has a cold. It wouldn't necessarily determine that a person has other blockages in their system beyond that. Is that true?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: I guess I'm still not following your logic at that point. The high score doesn't mean any one particular type of physical blockage to the eliminative processes in the body. It's a composite. It could be this. It could be this. It could be some other area.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: But you just said that one way you can correlate it with actual physical findings is that you've found that people over the years who have high readings oftentimes have colds; right? Did you say that?

A. I did say that, but I didn't say that a high reading indicated having a cold in all situations. It could be indicating some other --

Q. I didn't mean to say that. I'm saying there's a correlation in your opinion between --

A. In my opinion there is frequently a correlation between those two.

Q. And so my question was just the fact there's a correlation between a high score there and having a cold doesn't mean that it indicates that other blockages as you've termed them are present; is that correct?

A. Well, there might or might not be other blockages. Again, it's a composite test. So it's not singling out one particular system of the body.

Q. It might just mean the person has a cold; right?

A. It could mean that. It could mean something else.

Q. And in terms of why this works, why that you believe it works, I just want to get back to the fact that this is part of a software package that you've purchased that in your opinion is scientifically sound -- is that correct -- this test?

A. Could you define what you mean by "scientifically sound."

Q. That it's based on the theories of two people you respect who are scientists.

A. Yes.

Q. Let's get to the third test, the regeneration blockage; is that the right term?

A. Yes.

Q. And before we get to that, what exactly have you done -- I'm back in the role of trainee here, and what have you done to show me how to test Cheryl for elimination blockage? How do I do that on Cheryl?

A. Okay, you're repeatedly taking the same, you know, electrodermal reading on that acupuncture point as you switch to the different filters going up the scale. So you're starting at 10, checking that, and then we do this normally with a foot switch that advances it to the next one. And then you test it again on 9 and then again on 8 and again on 7 and so on until you get one that the reading reacts.

Q. So there's a spike in the reading when you get to a certain point?

A. There's a spike in the reading, right.

Q. How did I interpret that spike as the tester?

A. You would interpret that as that particular number that it was on on the scale would be her overall toxicity number that we would be recording for the test.

Q. And you said that the scale is on a declining basis that goes from 1 to 10?

A. Well, 10 to zero on the first one and then 15 to 1 on the other two.

Q. And just to get the mechanics of this right, I test it, same point, probe in the same place. I test it first at 10, nothing spikes. Test it on 9, nothing spikes. Test it on 8, nothing spikes. Test it on 7, nothing spikes. Test it on 6, and it spikes. And at that point do I have to go further up to --

A. No, that's it. You stop on that particular test at that point and record a 6 for her overall toxicity rating.

Q. I was talking about elimination blockage.

A. Whichever one you were on.

Q. So it's the same methodology.

A. Right.

Q. Okay, great. Let's move on to the regeneration blockage. What exactly does that show?

A. To the best of my knowledge, my training from Martina and Schimmel, that reflects where the body is on a relative scale of regeneration versus degeneration at a cellular level, 15 being the most degenerative reading. Or another term that could be used for it would be that the body would be in more of a catabolic state.

Q. Catabolic, could you define that.

A. Catabolic means that you're tearing down, tearing down faster than you're building up would be a layman's definition of it -- as opposed to a regenerative or an anabolic reading referring to you're building up faster than you're tearing down. So in every individual in our bodies we have processes that are anabolic and processes that are catabolic. And if you're healthy, you're higher on the anabolic end of it, the building up, the regenerating, than you are on degenerating end of it. That's essentially how they would define it.

Q. Before we get into that particular theory, you said your training from Martina and Schimmel. What has been your training from Martina and Schimmel?

A. Several seminars from each of them.

Q. When were those seminars?

A. The ones from Schimmel were early 1990s, and I think the two that I've had from Martina were more mid to late 1990s. I don't remember the exact years without looking at my certificates from them.

Q. How many seminars did you attend with regard to each of the trainers?

A. As I said, I believe two from Martin

A. And I think just two from Schimmel, so two for each.

Q. What was the duration of those seminars?

A. They were both weekend, two day.

Q. During the seminars did you get -- we'll start with the Schimmel training; how many people were present at the seminar?

A. Oh, my, probably 100.

Q. And where were they given?

A. The first Schimmel seminar I went to was in the San Francisco are

A. And the second one was in Los Angeles at the airport.

Q. Who was the audience made up of?

A. Nutritionists like myself, chiropractors, naturopaths, medical doctors, a whole range of health practitioners.

Q. Did Schimmel talk about his theories at that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he demonstrate electrodermal testing at that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he do individual hands-on training with anyone?

A. No, not at those.

Q. Did he present a patient or client as an example during those seminars?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was he testing for at those seminars?

A. I don't remember specifically what areas were demonstrated.

Q. Was it testing for nutritional deficiencies?

A. No. I have not seen him demonstrate that.

Q. Was he testing for weak organs or glands?

A. Yes, he did do some of that as I recall.

Q. Was he testing for toxicity as you've described it here, either overall toxicity or elimination blockage or regeneration blockage?

A. Yes, I believe he did do some of that also.

Q. You mentioned that was something that Martina developed as a concept. Let me back up a little bit. Did Schimmel develop that too, or was Martina post-Schimmel?

A. Martina is post-Schimmel. Martina is a protege of Schimmel.

Q. So Schimmel wasn't demonstrating Martina's theories at the time, was he?

A. No. Martina was attending the seminar.

Q. When you say that he was testing for toxicity and elimination blockage and regeneration blockage, was this also part of Schimmel's theories?

A. Yes. Schimmel did not -- Schimmel had a method, a series of filters that he called biological age. Martina took this and expanded on the system and created the three divisions calling it biological score index. And then he's the one than created the overall toxicity elimination blockage, regeneration blockage. That was not Schimmel, but it was built on an original concept that Schimmel had done.

Q. So did either Martina or Schimmel talk about nutritional deficiency in their talks?

A. I don't recall either of them talking about that.

Q. And let's back up a little bit. We'll go back to regeneration blockage and talk a little more about theory later. Regeneration blockage you said essentially tests -- and I'm trying to put it in terms I understand -- whether at the cellular level cells are regenerating or degenerating. Would that be a safe way to say it?

A. That would be a fair description, yes.

Q. And when you say regenerating, what exactly do you mean, replicating themselves?

A. I don't know exactly what they mean by that. I have not thought about it to that detail, and they didn't explain it to that detail in my training.

Q. What about degeneration?

A. And your question relative to degeneration again is?

Q. I'm sorry, how would you define degeneration? Is it that the cells are dying?

A. I believe that would be accurate. Back to what I shared earlier about the cells breaking down faster than they're building up, I guess you could say that they're dying faster than they're replicating.

Q. So is it your theory then that cells are either breaking down or replicating as opposed to just being in stasis?

A. I don't really have a theory on that I guess. My understanding is that there is a relative level of whether one is again primarily in an anabolic state or in a catabolic state relative to their overall body chemistry. And you don't want to be in the catabolic state. Beyond that I don't really know what I could add to it.

Q. Well, it seems to me you're measuring something and you're using a scale to measure it. And I'm trying to understand exactly what it is that you're measuring, the theory behind it.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And you said to me that it's on a cellular level. And my understanding of cells, albeit based not on extensive training, is that some of them, most of them are simply in a position of stasis; they are neither growing nor dying. So does this particular test indicate stasis as well as regeneration-degeneration?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: The question would be one of the overall view of the body. What you say I'm sure would be true of a given cell, but when you look at the body as a whole, is there an excessive dying off of cells, a deterioration dying off as compared to the regenerative processes. So what we're thinking about and to the best of my understanding the purpose of the test is to look at the body in a more global way for what the trend is you might say.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Do people who are not healthy lose cells faster than people who are healthy; is that the theory behind it?

A. Generally if you have health issues, you're going to -- in terms of this you're going to score higher toward that degenerative direction, yes.

Q. That wasn't my question. My question was -- which Jane will read back to you. (Requested record read.)

THE WITNESS: Honestly I don't know if that would be an accurate statement. So I can't say yes to that. I just don't know. I'm not into this to that degree, and I'm not sure Schimmel and Martina know the answer to that either. But I certainly don't.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Well, the way you explained it to me -- and I'm trying to understand it so I can figure it out -- is regeneration blockage tests you on the continuum of whether at a cellular level you are regenerating or degenerating. And you used the terms anabolic or catabolic; right?

A. Right.

Q. And when I hear the term cellular, on a cellular level, I think of the cells, and I think really concretely. So that's why I'm trying to understand whether in fact you're telling me that the actual cells are making more of themselves in a healthier person in contrast with a sick person whose cells would be degenerating.

A. I think it depends on the type of health condition that's involved, and thus the term degenerative disease, as opposed to other types of disease. So it probably would depend upon the type of disease you're talking about. Theoretically in this model, if you have -- someone with a degenerative condition is more likely to show a higher number on that particular test. So there are obviously other types of illness that are not degenerative conditions, a common cold or whatever.

Q. What would be an example of a degenerative disease that would show a higher number on this particular test?

A. Arthritis, diabetes, potentially cancer -- those would be examples.

Q. Have you seen any studies that would show a correlation with this particular test and a degenerative disease such as the ones that you've mentioned?

A. I haven't seen any studies, no.

Q. What is your opinion about that based on then?

A. It's based on observation with known situations.

Q. It's not based on what Schimmel or Martina said, is it? Let me strike that. It was Martina's tests, so I'm not going to talk about Schimmel here. But did Martina posit that a higher score on the regeneration blockage scale showed the presence or any correlation with a degenerative disease?

A. Yes, he did indicate that.

Q. And when did he indicate that?

A. At the seminars.

Q. Do you know if he's ever written on that?

A. I don't know if he's ever written on that, no.

Q. Do you make any specific recommendations based on a finding of a high regeneration blockage reading?

A. No, not that in itself.

Q. What about a high elimination blockage reading?

A. No.

Q. What about a high toxicity level?

A. No.

Q. So what is the significance in the end of this particular set of tests, the biological score index?

A. As I stated previously, it is a monitoring tool to determine if we're making progress on the program when we take subsequent readings. So if the numbers are coming down when we retest them a month later, we know we're on the right track. And if they are staying the same, we know that we are not on the right track.

Q. So that brings us to I guess step four if we want to call them steps. We've had the initial reading, the baseline. We've had poison, the Draino; we've used that example. And then we've had the test relating to the biological score index. I'm a new trainee again. What comes next?

A. Next we would be checking the nutrient deficiency filters.

Q. And how would that be done?

A. There are five sections to that. Again, the digital signatures or whatever we want to call them are loaded in the computer. You would first check an overall test by checking the entire group to see if you got an elevated reading, the five groups being amino acid, digestive enzymes, hormonal and neurotransmitter, vitamins and minerals. And so you check the whole group at once, see if you got an elevated reading. If you did get an elevated reading, that would suggest that something in that group or some things in that group were reacting.

Q. Let me stop. How would you check the whole group? What are the mechanics of that? What are the readings that you would look for?

A. The mechanics would be you would highlight it with the curser key on the computer and, you know, via the software that connects it into the circuit.

Q. And what would you do in terms of the client? Would you touch the probe to a particular place on the client?

A. Right, again with all of the tests, each time you're testing something new, you're again taking another reading on the point. On this particular test normally we would move to the small intestine meridian on the little finger and test the deficiencies there.

Q. So you said you'd test all of those areas at the same time. You put the probe to the person's finger --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- at that particular meridian on their little finger. And then what do you do with the computer, and how do you test for everything at the same time?

A. You highlight that particular list.

Q. When you say highlight it --

A. Hit the curser key until that one lights up.

Q. And that one would be all the list of things, amino acids, et cetera, that you just --

A. Right.

Q. What would the computer show you at that point when you highlighted it and touched the prong to the client's little finger?

A. What the level of the reading is, whether it stays at the 50 baseline or whether it goes up to the higher reading up in the 60s.

Q. And you do that for each of the areas that you outlined?

A. Yes. MS. SELIS: Off the record. (Requested record read from page 233, line 16.)

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So you've highlighted that on the computer. You've held the prong up to the person's little finger. You've looked at the computer screen to see if on any of those the person's reading has gone above 50; is that safe to say?

A. It has to do more than go above 50. The readings in this type of testing will either stay right around the 50, right around the baseline, or they're going to go up to a distinctly higher reading, normally 60 or so.

Q. And you do it for each of those categories?

A. Yes.

Q. You said you did it all at once. Do you mean you do that particular set of tests all at once?

A. We do amino acid, and then we do the next category, vitamin, mineral and so on.

Q. What is the significance of the readings in those tests?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: Generally it would be interpreted that, if you don't react when the test filter is put in, that you don't have an imbalance relative to that particular nutrient. In other words, if it stays at 50, it's okay. If it goes up to a higher reading, whether you're -- again, we have to distinguish here whether we're testing the whole group or an individual item. But that would indicate a likely nutrient deficiency in that area.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: Let me see if I understand. We'll use the amino acid category. And here I am testing Cheryl. I'm holding the prong up to her pinky.

A. Right.

Q. I have put a filter in the system, and I'm testing for amino acids. What filter or filters have I put in the system, and what does that mean?

A. You have put in the entire group. These are arranged on the computer in groups such that you can select an individual item or you can select the group that that item is in and thereby test the entire group at once.

Q. What would be an example of a group and an item?

A. Amino acid would be a group. L-Lycine would be an item that's in that group. So that group has nine items in it.

Q. What are some of those items besides L-Lycine?

A. Arginine, thienylalanine, lysine, leucine, isoleucine -- it has nine of the ten essential amino acids in it.

Q. Everything in that subgroup is an amino acid?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that true also for the hormones; everything in that subgroup of hormones is a hormone?

A. Correct.

Q. And the other subgroups are similarly denominated.

A. Correct.

Q. So I'm testing Cheryl. I've pressed the button to tell the machine that I'm going to be testing for amino acids. I plug in lycine, and I get a high reading. What does that mean?

A. We would interpret that as a likely lycine deficiency.

Q. Okay. So when you get a high reading on any of the subgroups of the larger groups, i.e., in the hormones, if you test for estrogen, you get a high reading on that, and that shows that there might be an estrogen deficiency?

A. Correct.

Q. I'm beginning to get the logic of how that system works. And based on that do you make recommendations about what a person needs in the way of nutritional supplements and homeopathic remedies?

A. What that would do is trigger then testing a nutritional supplement of that type to see if it had an energetic balancing effect on the body or not. It might or might not. But we would check an L-Lycine supplement or an overall amino acid combination, one of the two.

Q. Would you recommend homeopathic remedies for any of the deficiencies that might show up in this form of testing?

A. Not really. The homeopathics wouldn't really be appropriate to that particular finding.

Q. So this is all related to nutrition, this particular set of tests?

A. This part is all about nutrition really, yeah.

Q. I want to understand how this test is denominated. You've got amino acids which have below them a test for a series of different types. You've got hormones. How many hormones do you test for?

A. It's hormones, and some of them would be classified as neurotransmitters like serotonin. I think there are, I don't know, somewhere between 15 and 20, I don't know.

Q. What's one of the other subcategories?

A. Vitamins.

Q. And how many are there under that category?

A. Again, I don't recall the exact number, but it would be approximately again I think between 15 and 20.

Q. And other categories?

A. Minerals.

Q. And how many under that?

A. I think there's 12 to 15 of those.

Q. And other categories?

A. Digestive enzymes.

Q. And how many of those?

A. Five or six.

Q. Is that it, or is there another category?

A. Is that five or --

Q. That's five.

A. That's it then.

Q. How do you know that these readings, these spikes correlate with a deficiency in the client's nutrition base?

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

THE WITNESS: The evidence we would have of that would be empirical in nature from observation with having a particular finding, for example, magnesium deficiency. And that correlating with the symptom picture of the client, with that in turn correlating with the client checking compatibly on a magnesium nutritional supplement and finally correlating with improvement in that symptom after the client has taken that for a period of time. That's the main way I personally have seen a validity in the testing.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: So it's your own observation; right?

A. My own observation. As to any research that Schimmel may have done on that, I'm not aware of. I'm not familiar if there is any or not.

Q. Is there any research that anybody's done on this particular mode of testing to determine that it works?

A. To determine nutrient deficiencies you mean?

Q. Uh-huh.

A. Again, there may be. I'm not aware one way or another if there is. The test kit was developed by Schimmel in Germany, and I don't know if they have any particular research on it.

Q. So Schimmel is the one who invented this particular form of testing using EDT?

A. Yes.

Q. When it was originally invented did he use the actual physical vials of amino acids, hormones, vitamins, minerals and digestive enzymes to enter them into the so-called circuit?

A. Yes.

Q. And the way you do it is each of these the amino acids, hormones, et cetera, have a digital value attached to them that's entered into the computer through software?

A. That's the way we currently do it. We in the past used the individual filters before we had that type of an instrument.

Q. Where did you get the software to do this?

A. That's part of the Omega AcuBase system. It's actually included in what it came pre-programmed with. Though we I think in the case of that manually programmed each of those in that we do on the deficiency test.

Q. So you said you bought that from Digital Health; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether Global -- what was the name of the people that manufacture the hardware?

A. Global Corp.

Q. Did Global Corp. program the computer to do that, or was it Digital Health?

A. The computers are by hardware and Global Corp. The only thing they made was the galvanic device part of it, C-29 unit, that plugs into a computer. Normally the way this is is you supply your own computer, and they supply the software which you load onto your own computer and then plug the galvanic device into your computer then.

Q. Okay. We are now finishing the fourth part of the testing then -- right -- the testing for nutritional deficiencies. Where do we go from there in terms of testing?

A. Next we would test the food sensitivities. And we would switch to the allergy meridian point on the middle finger.

Q. It's just below the middle knuckle of your middle finger?

A. Yeah. Again, they're kind of in the same relative position on each of the fingers. And then there are about 110 different food items again programmed into the computer, the digital signatures, that are divided into about a dozen different groups. We would check overall groups again and then check individual items in the members of the group if the overall test indicated a reaction.

Q. And so the larger groups are -- give me some examples.

A. Bean group, citrus group, dairy group, grain group.

Q. And below those you have specific types of beans?

A. Right.

Q. Specific types of dairy items?

A. Right.

Q. And the mechanics of this particular test are the same: The tester holds the probe -- the same as the other tests that is -- the tester holds the probe up to in this case the meridian that's just below the knuckle of the middle finger. And if there's a spike in the reading on the computer, that determines the person has a sensitivity; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Based on that reading what do you recommend?

A. We would do what we call a homeopathic food combination that would be a mixture of the homeopathic dilutions of each of the foods that they showed a reaction on. They would take that as a homeopathic remedy to aid in desensitizing their body to reacting to that particular food.

Q. So say I test Cheryl, and she has a sensitivity to milk.

A. Okay.

Q. What would you recommend that Cheryl do and take as a result of that?

A. Well, first of all, we're going to tell her not to drink milk. So avoiding the food is the number one thing. And then we would prepare a homeopathic food combination based upon her test results with milk and whatever other foods reacted, combined together, and she would be instructed to take those homeopathic drops, that homeopathic liquid under the tongue morning and evening every day.

Q. So this particular part of your testing is based on principles of homeopathy?

A. Yeah, in part, yes.

Q. So did you come up with the combination of the EDT testing and the recommendations for homeopathic preparations as your own method?

A. The concept of the testing again comes from Dr. Schimmel, and the Vega Company in Germany manufactures test vial sets for these. The concept of combining the homeopathic dilutions together to make the remedy came from Doug Leber instructed me in that.

Q. Do you put together the homeopathic solutions -- do you call them dilutions; is that the correct term?

A. That's correct.

Q. Do you yourself put together those homeopathic dilutions?

A. Yes, our office does. I don't personally necessarily do it. An employee does that. That is customized to whatever their test results were, yes.

Q. And do you oversee that process?

A. I train people in how to do that originally, and then I do supervise the office overall of course.

Q. So you decide what goes into that homeopathic --

A. Yes.

Q. -- dilution. And you do that based on what you were taught by Mr. Leber; is that correct?

A. Well, a combination, again, the method for testing the foods that way is from Schimmel. The method of putting the different homeopathic dilutions together to create the remedy is from Leber.

Q. What's the theory behind why the homeopathic dilutions will work if you have one?

A. Various homeopathic manufacturers around the world for I think quite a long time have used dilutions of food extracts for desensitizing on food and on environmental allergic reactions. My understanding of the how of that would be that putting the homeopathic dilution of the particular food into the body has a neutralizing effect on the reaction that the person would normally experience. The mechanics of just how that works I don't think has been fully elucidated by anybody, but it's been common practice for quite some time.

Q. What would be included in a homeopathic dilution that we would give to Cheryl to help her with her sensitivity to milk; what would it contain?

A. It would be a homeopathic dilution of milk, of an extract of milk. It would be specifically a 6X dilution.

Q. 6X meaning six times the concentration of milk?

A. No. In homeopathic terminology X potencies refers to a serial dilution on a one-to-ten ratio based on the Roman numeral X for ten. So in other words, to make a 6X homeopathic dilution, the way that would be done is you would start with the original mother tincture of the substance. You'd take one drop of that, combine it with nine drops of water, and that would be followed by a succussing procedure.

Q. What's succussing?

A. That's spelled s-u-c-c-u-s-s-i-n-g. Succussing is the process developed by Hahnemann, the originator of homeopathy, in which a one-way shaking against a solid object is done. So if I want to succuss a homeopathic bottle, I'm going like this (indicating).

Q. You're striking your fist against your palm so you'd hit that particular solution to a hard surface.

A. Right. And the purpose of that is to energize the liquid with those particular molecules at that point for lack of a better term. At that point you'd have a 1X, okay. The X refers to -- or the number ahead of the X refers to how many zeros you would have, how many decimal points you would have behind the number. 1X means 1 over 10. 12X means 1 over 100. 3X is 1 over a thousand and so on. So a 6X is a 1 per 1 million dilution. But in homeopathy that is done by what's called a serial dilution. So in other words, 1 to 10, 1 to 10, 1 to 10 -- do that six times, and then you have a 6X. So you make the 1 to 10. Then you take one drop of that and repeat the procedure, do it again, repeat the procedure until you've done that six times. And at that point you've got 6X. So that's how they make it.

Q. When you say "they make it" --

A. The homeopathic manufacturer.

Q. Do you get your products from a homeopathic manufacturer, or do you actually create them yourself?

A. No, we get them from homeopathic manufacturers.

Q. Who is that?

A. Some of them come from the Dolisos Company, D-o-l-i-s-o-s, in Las Vegas. Others come from Professional Formulas in Portland.

Q. So the person who you're supervising and the actual preparation of the dilutions yourself is simply just taking the homeopathic dilutions that you get that you purchase and bringing them to the correct level of strength; is that correct? Or do you just use them right out of the bottle?

A. No, they're just combining them out of the bottle into the bottle that we're making up the food combination in.

Q. And the extent of your training in homeopathy is your work with Dr. Leber -- is that correct -- other than a seminar or something that you've been to?

A. Well, with him, with the other seminars that I've attended that have dealt with that, with personal reading over the past 20, 25 years.

Q. Which seminars are those again?

A. The Classical Homeopathy Seminar with Steven Stiteler that I mentioned earlier, the topic dealt with in part at the seminars by Dr. Schimmel and by Dr. Martina.

Q. Are Dr. Schimmel or Dr. Martina homeopaths to your knowledge?

A. I guess that would depend on how you define homeopath.

Q. Do you know if they have any licensure or certification as homeopaths?

A. Relative to Schimmel, he's a medical doctor and dentist, or was. He passed away a few months ago. And in Germany homeopathy is part of medical practice. So there's not a separate distinction there to my knowledge for homeopaths or licensure or other point of view. Martina is a medical doctor. I'm not sure where he is currently practicing. I believe he's currently practicing in Holland. And I have no idea what the status of homeopaths is there other than generally in Europe homeopathy is practiced right along with conventional medicine.

Q. Let's talk about what happens next. You've got testing for nutritional deficiencies. And I lost track. I think that's number five in the series.

A. You were just doing food sensitivities.

Q. Food sensitivities, six. Anything after that in terms of the testing?

A. Environmental sensitivities would be next. MS. SELIS: Can we take a two-minute break.

(A recess was taken.)

MS. SELIS: We're back on the record. And we've had some discussion off the record about continuing the deposition to a later time. What we've decided to do is that we're going to talk about the end of the first half of the testing right now which we'll get into in a minute here. And then when we resume whenever that is we'll go on to the second part of the testing and all the other issues we're going to be talking about.

Q. We've covered the food allergies and talked about the preparation of the homeopathic dilutions. What else do you do in terms of the testing at that point?

A. Well, we would go on to the next test which would be the environmental sensitivities. They are tested the same way as the food sensitivities. The only difference is there are only two groups labeled environmental group 1 and 2. These include things like house dust, molds, flowers, pollens, things of that nature just divided into two groups. You would again check the overall group on the same point, the middle finger allergy meridian point. If you get a reaction, a spike, the term that you've been using, that's accurate on the overall group, you would open the group and then check each individual item in the group to find out which ones were the offending substances.

Q. I've been under a misimpression up to now. I didn't realize that as a first step you check the overall group to see whether there's a spike and then you open it up. Is that universally true?

A. Yes. That was true on nutrient deficiencies, food sensitivities and on environmental.

Q. So if we're talking about food sensitivities, when we went to Cheryl's example we would have first noticed that she had a spike in the area of dairy; would that have been the group that would have indicated a spike?

A. Actually in the example you gave we have a -- the first group we have are commonly sensitive foods and plain cow's milk is in that first group rather than the dairy group. The dairy group just has other dairy products in it.

Q. What would be an example of a large group, grains?

A. Yeah, grain is a group, and then that's made up of rye and oats and rice and barley and so on.

Q. So if we get a spike that shows that there's a sensitivity to grains, then we would test for the subgroups. We would test for each of the subgroups?

A. Well, you're not testing for a subgroup. You're testing for the individual constituents of that grain group made up of those eight or ten different grains.

Q. So would you check for each of those?

A. Go through each one, yeah.

Q. So the same thing is true of environmental sensitivities?

A. Yes.

Q. And how were they grouped again?

A. They're just divided into two groups with no particular design really. We have animal dander, cat hair, dog hair, dust, tobacco smoke, wool, a couple others that I can't remember in group 1. Group 2 has three different mold mixtures, two different pollen mixtures, two different tree mixtures, a flower mixture. So it's an arbitrary dividing of the two groups pretty much.

Q. And if you get a spike, you go into the subcategories, and you check to see which among those constituents --

A. Right.

Q. -- the person is sensitive to in the environment?

A. Correct.

Q. You said you test with the probe the same way that you do for food sensitivities; is that correct?

A. Yeah, and on the same point.

Q. And what is that point associated with?

A. It's associated with allergic reactivity.

Q. Is that based on principles of acupuncture?

A. That would be based on Dr. Voll's method. Just to clarify one point here, Dr. Voll discovered additional acupuncture meridians in developing his system back in the 1950s and 1960s. So he started with what are called the classical acupuncture meridians and then discovered by again placing the galvanic device on the fingers and observing the readings going up and down that there were also meridians that were not identified in the ancient Chinese classical acupuncture. He labeled those extraordinary meridians. And the allergy meridian is one of those. So it's not out of classical Chinese acupuncture. It's one discovered by Dr. Voll.

Q. Based on your findings say you determine that someone has a sensitivity -- or would you call it an allergy at this point?

A. Always a sensitivity. We do not use the term "allergy" at all.

Q. -- a sensitivity to dust mites, what would you recommend for them? Would you recommend a homeopathic remedy? Would you recommend a supplement? What would be your recommendation?

A. It would again as in the case of the foods be the homeopathic dilution remedy for that particular item.

Q. And the remedy that you decide on is based again on the information that you got from Mr. Leber?

A. Well, the remedy that's decided on is whichever one tests positive, I mean whichever filter is testing positively. That same item is serving as the remedy.

Q. I see, okay. Is that the final test that you do in that series of tests?

A. In the first --

MR. BISHIN: Object to the form of the question.

Q. BY MS. SELIS: In the first segment of your testing?

A. Yes, that would conclude the first half of the test.

Q. Is that testing done by your testers as opposed to your consultants?

A. That's done by the technician, yes.

MS. SELIS: Okay. I think we're probably at a good point to stop right now. And we'll resume when we schedule our next time.

(Volume I of the deposition concluded at 5:50 p.m.)

(Signature was reserved.)

This page was posted on August 12, 2014..

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